Ryan Luetzow (R.L.): The Oscars are 97 years old. From “Wings” to an “Anora,” movies have changed a lot in that time. That's why I'm looking back at one Best Picture winner from each decade to try and understand the movies that were at one time called the best. This is The Best Picture Show. Welcome to the Best Picture Show, the show about the very best symbolic rocks. My name is Ryan Luetzow, and today we're talking about “Parasite,” the first international Best Picture winner, which is why today I have with me international student filmmaker, Nicholas Wu. Hi, Nicholas.

Nicholas Wu (N.W.): Hi everybody.

R.L.: We're here to talk about “Parasite,” which, first international film to win Best Picture, and only one as of now?

N.W.: “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.” It got close to winning Best Picture.

R.L.: Right. Where's Ang Lee from?

N.W.: Taiwan.

R.L.: All right, and you're from China. 

N.W.: Yeah, I'm from China. 

R.L.: All right. And “Parasite” is Korean? Obviously, all very different, not trying to group everyone in together, but we did want to get an international perspective. You're a storyboard artist, you were telling me. The shot composition in this movie it's very comic book-y in the way it's like things going on in the background and the foreground, very well planned and specific and comedic in the way the shots actually play out. 

N.W.: Yeah, there's a rhythm to it. It's such a well designed storyboarded and just thought out movie. Even just by watching a scene, because it fits in within the whole movie you can just remember the movie. I'm always curious to learn, like, how does an American audience view international movies? 

R.L.: I guess I don't really know how specific it is to Korea, but it feels like it could be in America. But other than like, the architecture and stuff like and the language, obviously. It's very similar to our class system, which is, I think, why people responded.

N.W.: Oh yeah. It's very universal, like, globally speaking, not just like, Western culture, but like, cultures everywhere. 

R.L.: Yeah, I love how funny it is. I think people don't talk about that very much because it's so scathing and dark and upsetting, but it's so, so funny. And that's, I think, Bong Joon Ho, one of his greatest strengths is that he's able to walk that line so well. And I think of what I've seen of him, this is the best example of him doing it. 

N.W.: I do notice a difference when he's directing in all English. He's not fluent [in] English. When he directed, like Hollywood sponsored movies facing English speaking audience, right? How does his kind of intellect translate through? For “Mickey 17,” I think you also noticed that it's more comical than “Parasite.” He's willing to give up the seriousness and really to heighten the, you know, the ridiculousness of the characters. I think it reads very differently. 

R.L.: I can't imagine directing somebody and not knowing how their intonation is reading right? Because, like, I wouldn't know if I if the person isn't speaking English, I wouldn't really know if it's a good, like, delivery or not. I mean, when I'm watching movies that aren't in English, I don't know what the equivalent of what you know what they're saying is in English really, like, I know what it translates to, but I don't know what the intonation is really. So there's always going to be that disconnect. I'll never really be able to watch it the way someone who speaks the language would. 

N.W.: American movies are so well known, so widespread, I don't necessarily feel that same kind of foreignness to it. Films, especially the most popular ones, are not the authentic one, I'll just say, hot take. 

R.L.: Not the most authentic to reality?

N.W.: Yeah, even though “Parasite” provides a window for people to look into the Korean society, when a film gets popular, it gets popular with sacrifice of some of the edginess or something that appeals specifically to that language, to that cultural group. “Parasite” won over the world for its universality, but I think there are other films that may get you a better understanding of the Korean society and also the history. I don't know. Do you watch some Chinese movies? 

R.L.: Some Wong Kar-wai, but that's basically it.

N.W.: That's really Hong Kong.

R.L.: Really, not China?

N.W.: Oh, yeah. Like Hong Kong movies, oh, there is a cultural difference. 

R.L.: Okay, then I guess I haven't seen any Chinese movies. 

N.W.: Zhang Yimou?

R.L.: No. I've seen “Police Story.”

N.W.: “Police Story.” That’s Hong Kong. 

R.L.: That’s Hong Kong!

N.W.: When an audience of any other culture watch a foreign film, to them, they hold on to those stereotypical impressions. Can you imagine an American accent? 

R.L.: No, I don't know what it sounds like to other people. I've heard people mimic it before, like, what English sounds like to someone who doesn't speak English, and it's super interesting. It sounds like Sims language. 

N.W.: Yeah. So in Chinese films, there's a sci fi film. It's basically the Earth is dying, so instead of ditching the earth, they decide to move the entire Earth to another Solar System in like, 30 centuries. Okay so in that film, American, like, there's a UN [United Nations] and they're forging, like, a global plan to it, yeah? And then America. 

R.L.: It's really funny whenever they speak English in international movies. I'm like, “That's what it sounds like for other people when we do it.” Because it's always like, it doesn't sound right.

N.W.: Yeah, it's always, he's always from the south. 

R.L.: He's like a cowboy or something. 

N.W.: We don't want this to happen. Every science fiction movie they have like a global crisis. It has a global, international scale to it. But in Korean sci-fi movies, Korea is its own country, right, with its own government and dealing with those big, high concept crisis, but America is always looming in the shadow by casting over a kind of Korean government. It's always a country that's more capable, has more power to the situation, but it stays out of it for some reason. You know, going back in history, South Korea and North Korea's division is actually a result of Soviet and U.S. Cold War. America has, you know, their military base there, like also in Japan. So you can always sense this kind of inferiority reflection in their film, that American is someone who's capable, but never present to help whatever situation they're in.

“We don't want this to happen. Every science fiction movie they have like a global crisis. It has a global, international scale to it. But in Korean sci-fi movies, Korea is its own country, right, with its own government and dealing with those big, high concept crisis, but America is always looming in the shadow by casting over a kind of Korean government. It's always a country that's more capable, has more power to the situation, but it stays out of it for some reason. You know, going back in history, South Korea and North Korea's division is actually a result of Soviet and U.S. Cold War. America has, you know, their military base there, like also in Japan. So you can always sense this kind of inferiority reflection in their film, that American is someone who's capable, but never present to help whatever situation they're in.”

R.L.: I noticed when I was watching the movie this time, they use English names when the poor family is working at the house. They're Jenny and Kevin or whatever, you know? And that just lends them, like, a credibility to the family. And like, they say, like, she's from, like, Illinois, or whatever, which, if you said, like, I'm from Illinois in America, it's like, okay, whatever. But, to them, they're like, “Oh, she's from Illinois. She must be, like, really smart.”

N.W.: How does that feel when you watch it as an American?

R.L.: It was just interesting. It's like, not how we view ourselves, I think. 

N.W.: Bong Joon Ho’s other film, “The Host,” right? It's about American military base threw those chemicals into the Han river, not out of like ill will, but just they didn’t care about Korea. Now, you look at the news, South Korea cannot go through any major global decision involving conflict without talking to America first. Not talking about Bong Joon Ho, just Korean film as a whole, there's always the resenting American’s military's involvement, but at the same time, they do know it's a better place with better resources, like economically speaking. Kudos to Neon because they betted on the Palme d’Or film five years in a row, like they bought those films before it won.

R.L.: And they're still doing it, right? They did “Anora,” right?

N.W.: Yeah, okay, “Anora,” like “Anatomy of a Fall.” Yeah. “Parasite,” it's the first Korean film to do that. And on top of it, it's been so long, I think a genre film actually gets this kind of artistic recognition. 

R.L.: In my memory, I was like, “All right, it’s that comedy for the first half, drama second half.” Not really, like, it kind of is a comedy until the last 10 minutes, like, even when things go wrong, it's still very like scrambling. 

N.W.: It's a slapstick comedy. 

R.L.: But what I really noticed this time was how much the first half is structured, like a heist movie with like, going back and forth of like, them planning, and then them being the executing the plan. And it's back and forth between those, and it's all montage, and it's and things, when things go wrong, and you're like, “Oh, that wasn't in their plan,” but then sometimes it works out better for them. And it reminded me a lot of, like, “Ocean's 11,” or like, something like that, the way it's shot and edited. And there's like an exact parallel to “Reservoir Dogs,” where they show Song Kang-ho’s character, saying his lines, and then they cut to him rehearsing them with the script, like the exact line. So yeah, he's drawing influences from all over.

N.W.: Bong Joon Ho grew up right next to an American military base, so he gets like, television signals from America base. You know, there's a lot of like old movies like "Sorcerers," you know, “Exorcist,” you know, playing on the cable. So he does get a lot of like influence, like from genre films. And I think because he had like a background as a cartoonist, I think he's very familiar with the comical and just the sarcastic tone.

R.L.: And using the visuals to sell the comedy too. When the housekeeper lady is running up the stairs, and in the background, the mom just kicks her back and she falls like the fact that that's all in the background.

N.W.: The camera movements. It's either forward, backwards or sideways. It's very…

R.L.: It’s like panels sliding along. 

N.W.: It's very directional. 

R.L.: And the production design, very boxed, you know? Everything is a plan like and they talk about the architecture in the movie because the housekeeper is, like, obsessed with this famous architect. 

N.W.: It's also a clue, I think it's a Japanese architect, yeah. So that's a clue he left in the movie, that this wealth is built on colonization, because Korea did get colonized briefly by Japan. 

R.L.: There's so many little things in this. You talk about, like a perfect screenplay, it doesn't mean you follow the whatever, the eight beats or whatever or the three act structure, save the cat, whatever. It means this where it's like every single thing is adding layers and layers and layers. Everything is used, but it also doesn't feel like a small world. Every character matters and is unique, and it's all just like, oh, like, it just feels like you're being punched in a good way.

N.W.: Yeah.

R.L.: It's so good. They don't need to make the poor people good people, and they don't need to make the rich people bad people, because there's already the fact that they're in these situations drives the conflict like, that's not the point, I feel. And this movie really ushered in, I don't think necessarily just because of this movie, just because we're at this point in our culture, so many like, quote unquote, eat the rich movies, you know? That were coming out so many in the past five years, and in so many of those, they make the rich people assholes. And it's like, fine, there are a lot of rich assholes, but it's less interesting, you know, if they are, because then people can walk away from it being like, “Oh, well, I'm not an asshole. So there's, I'm not doing anything wrong.” But this movie makes the choice, and they talk about it in the movie that the rich couple are like, nice. Why would they need to be mean? They have nothing to you know, complain about. That doesn't make them good people. Like they're still rude, like in ways that they don't even realize, especially in the last 20 minutes or so, and they don't really respect them at all. But they don't need to make them like villainous. I think that's the strength of the movie, one of the main strengths.

N.W.: The politeness. They're only on the surface, but Bong Joon Ho’s making it very clear that being rich is the original sin. 

R.L.: They're the parasites on culture. Like, you know? There's three parasites, right? There's the poor family, there's the house maid and her husband and there's the rich people. Like, they're all parasites. 

N.W.: I don't know where that takes human nature, if everything just fueled by money. So I personally, I think it's a strong stand. I also think it's a very hopeless stand

R.L.: That's the byproduct of making it like it doesn't matter that they're not like, evil, they're still bad. Then the byproduct is like, “Oh, so what are you supposed to do?” You know? 

N.W.: Oh, you said you watch all the Park?

R.L.: I've seen all of Park Chan-wook’s movies. 

N.W.: How do you think of those like, in terms of the feeling it left you?

R.L.: Everyone talks about “Old Boy,” but “Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance" and “Lady Vengeance” are two of the bleakest movies I've ever seen.

N.W.: Worst experience. 

R.L.: They're so good, though. And Song Kang-ho is so good in “Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance.” Talk about, oh my god, what a face that guy has, the way he lurches over and his like lip points down into a triangle and like, he's got a great face for the screen, because it's dynamic and interesting. 

N.W.: Doesn't fit into an archetype. 

R.L.: Also, a very skilled actor, like, it's not just that he has a great face. And everybody in this movie, it's hard to pick out, like, a stand up performance. Nobody's stealing any energy from anybody else. Like, it's truly an ensemble. Everyone is so good. The mom of the rich family is so funny. I don't know the names. I wish I knew the names. I'm sorry. I mean, I like everybody. I like the daughter of the poor family, the husband and wife who live in the basement. And Bong is so good at giving everyone a unique like visual characteristic, I think because he comes from illustration, he's able to create these striking images, like the husband running up the stairs. Everything works so well together, like the little kid’s trauma therapy, and it's the ghost is the guy who lives in the basement and peaches and the and the fact that the little kid is obsessed with Indians, like American Indians, is such an interesting detail, because I was like, “I'd never thought about what other cultures think of” because I know what we what our problems are. The kid’s, like, interested in American culture. He's like a boy scout, and then so he's gonna take on the prejudices of that culture. Everyone talks about the class allegory, but there's so much else going on too.

N.W.: Yeah. 

R.L.: There's always, like, a new movement, like, it's the same overarching goal, but they're never stuck on something for too long. There's always another, you know, problem, or something else. And it's just such an exciting movie to watch, and so entertaining. And, I mean, that's truly, the truly great movies are ones that, yes, they have great themes and they're saying something, but they're also so entertaining because that's like what movies are. And the ones who are able to do both are, like the masterpieces. And I think this is already considered like a, it's gonna be like an all time classic. You know, it's already on the AFI [American Film Institute] list, like everything, like, it's one of those. I feel like there's a few movies from the 2010s and that are already, like, cemented in stone. I think this is definitely one of them.

“There's always, like, a new movement, like, it's the same overarching goal, but they're never stuck on something for too long. There's always another, you know, problem, or something else. And it's just such an exciting movie to watch, and so entertaining. And, I mean, that's truly, the truly great movies are ones that, yes, they have great themes and they're saying something, but they're also so entertaining because that's like what movies are. And the ones who are able to do both are, like the masterpieces. And I think this is already considered like a, it's gonna be like an all time classic.”

N.W.: To be honest, when you first invited me over you asked me how I feel about like “Parasite” as an international student. Oscar, it's an American award, right? 

R.L.: Yeah.

N.W.: And to have a category for before they change it to Best International Film, it's called the Best Foreign Film, right? It's still defined by its foreigners. It's like 50% of the dialogue. So last year or the year before it's like “All the Imaginary Lights.” Yeah, it's like a British film, but it's mainly Hindu, right? 

R.L.: Interesting. 

N.W.: So that's Britain's pick for, like, Best International Film. And they asked, you know, countries to select and submit their film. So it's supposed to represent, like a political body, but then the criteria is language. 

R.L.: It's very strange. 

N.W.: So Hollywood has all the like unions, and it has a system to ensure great film production, and it still gives out the best film. But at the same time, I think this sovereignty gives it the privilege to set up a category called Best International Film and have all the countries globally to compete, so to speak for it. It's definitely the first time it happened, right? Best International Film that also won Best Picture. So it's like it finally broke out of this prejudice against, you know, foreign movies. Let's just say foreign movies, because they are, but at the same time, well, it does raise the question, like, what changed? Because there's all the members in the Academy right? Now I think of Oscar, it's really a thought in hindsight. It reflects, you know, the industry. It doesn't provide a new direction for the industry. I think that's the common misconception. 

R.L.: Yeah, that's a good point. 

N.W.: Yeah, because there are more international members in it, right? They will give credit to more foreign movies, because they all come from, like, foreign background. And for every year, there are other members that died, who left their spot open, and then more and more international filmmakers gets involved, and that's when you see, I think it's interesting also, like international filmmakers get to work on American films, they must first have their successful film through film festivals, right? So film festivals, what movies do they accept? Independent movie, right? It's not studio sponsored movie. It goes way beyond the Hollywood system. So as far as a film festival movie goes, they're all independent movies. Yeah. So you see a trend in the past five years, right? “No Man’s Land” won like 2020 and then later.

R.L.: “Coda.”

N.W.: “Coda,” yeah. They're all like independent movies. 

R.L.: I mean, even “Everything Everywhere All at Once” is A24.

N.W.: It's still independent movies. And then “Anora.”

R.L.: “Anora.” So “Oppenheimer” is the only one that isn’t of the 2020s. 

N.W.: This is kind of a revelation too to international students, right? We dream of working in Hollywood, but the reality of the situation is it's hard for citizens to get into the Union. All the film project has to prove to the immigration that whoever international in talent they're hiring are worth the trouble to stay. For Hollywood, I think it's easier to just choose local like employees. Whenever a film is like, critical in nature, right? It's like, then you can have more conflict. It's a better film. I think “Parasite” is a very conflict driven. It has a lot of critical observation right of the society, and it fuels the story. Whenever China picks its film, like mainland China, it's always a film that represents the best version of China. Really want people to watch authentic Chinese films. 

R.L.: Drop some names. 

N.W.: Okay, there's a film called “Better Days.” Because of, you know, this hidden censorship so you don't really get a lot of, like, realistic input in it. And “Better Days” is, I think, a really good lens into the more than Chinese society and I encourage everybody to go watch that film.

R.L.: Final question, are you a plane guy or a train guy? 

N.W.: Plane movies are either about hijack or about the plane crashing. And the whole point of hijack is because it leads to a crash. 

R.L.: That's a good point. There's no plane movies about it going well, whereas train movies, you can have stories set on trains where the train doesn't get derailed. Well, the music's playing and they're yanking me off the stage with a cane. I never say this, but the best guest award goes to you. Nicholas Wu, thank you so much for being on the show. 

N.W.: All right, glad to be here. Funny that anybody wants to listen to me. 

R.L.: Do you have anything to plug? 

N.W.: I'm a storyboard artist. On my Instagram page, letterboxd at The Nicholas Wu, I'm arrogant enough to claim. 

R.L.: The Nicholas Wu. 

N.W.: Because who else is Nicholas Wu? 

R.L.: The Best Picture Show is a podcast hosted by Ryan Luetzow and produced by ROAR Studios. Opinions and ideas expressed in this podcast are those of individual student content creators and are not those of Loyola Marymount University, its board of trustees or its student body. You can subscribe to us on Spotify and Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to follow us at watch listen roar. This episode was produced by Ryan Luetzow. Special thanks to Emma Russell for technical guidance and Associate Producer Emma Singletary. Thank you to Nicholas Wu for joining us and thank you so much for listening. Play us out.