Ryan Luetzow (R.L.): The Oscars are 97 years old. From “Wings” to “Anora,” movies have changed a lot in that time. That's why I'm looking back at one Best Picture winner from each decade to try and understand the movies that were at one time called the best. This is The Best Picture Show. Welcome to The Best Picture Show, the show about the very best bootleg DVDs. My name is Ryan Luetzow, and today we're talking about “The Hurt Locker,” an action film, and the first women directed Best Picture winner, which is why, with me, I have a female action director, Athena Cheris. Hi, Athena. 

Athena Cheris (A.C.): Hi, how are you doing?

R.L.: I’m doing great. So you watched “The Hurt Locker?” 

A.C.: I'd seen it before in a film class when I was in high school. It was, who is a better director, James Cameron or Kathryn Bigelow? I think my teacher liked drama a little bit, and so it's funny to talk about it again now, having seen it again recently. 

R.L.: Who do you think's better? 

A.C.: I like Kathryn Bigelow more, but that's because I prefer things grounded in reality rather than fantasy.

R.L.: I haven't seen enough Kathryn, I've only seen this one and “Point Break.” So I haven't, I can't speak. I love “Point Break.”

A.C.: I've only seen “Avatar.” I've never seen “Titanic.”

R.L.: Oh okay. Is “Avatar” the only James Cameron you’ve seen? “Aliens?”

A.C.: No.

R.L.: “Terminator?” “Terminator 2?” 

A.C.: He did the original “Terminator?” 

R.L.: Yeah. 

A.C.: Yeah, I still prefer Kathryn Bigelow. 

R.L.: “Avatar, the Way Water?” 

A.C.: That I didn't see. I saw the first one. I was done with blue people.

R.L.: I think two is even better. 

A.C.: Did you know that Kathryn Bigelow started off in college as a painter? 

R.L.: I didn’t. Just like David Lynch. 

A.C.: Exactly. And I think there is something to understanding how things can be captured in a moment. What moments matter most? Because that's what matters most in painting, you really get to feel that in “Hurt Locker.” If I could summarize it in a couple moments, it would be, spoilers warning?

R.L.: Go ahead. 

A.C.: Okay, the supermarket scene at the end, the explosive around the man's neck and then, when we're first introduced to Jeremy Renner. 

R.L.: The five bombs, which is the poster.

A.C.: Yes. And I think that, for me, is what really stands out about Kathryn Bigelow, is they all feel like real moments, but she has depicted them in such a way that they remain in your mind. It's like seared or tattooed in there. 

R.L.: Every war movie, or veteran movie specifically, is like someone who, like, never really left the war, right? But we're following these guys who are going to be like that while they're in the war, Jeremy Renner, specifically his character. 

A.C.: And I also appreciated that it showed being stuck in the war, without it necessarily being a depiction of PTSD. 

R.L.: For a war movie there's, like, a lot of downtime. They're just kind of roaming the desert. It's kind of a road trip movie, even though they're going back to the same place every time, going from one little event to another event, each bomb is kind of its own set piece. It's not so much that they see all these awful things happen, though they do, being stuck there and it being every day just feels like this endless desert mirage.

A.C.: On everything being different and it being particularly unique as a movie. Jeremy Runner was not Hawkeye yet. Anthony Mackey was also not in the MCU [Marvel Cinematic Universe] yet. There wasn't really, like a huge, known actor attached to this film.

R.L.: They open with Guy Pierce though they kind of like trick you, and then he dies right away. 

A.C.: It plays against our expectations. Also, you have a war movie with a ton of handheld. It feels like footage that you would see from an actual war. It's very contrary to how “Apocalypse Now” is filmed, where it feels heightened to that cinematic epic. You can do a lot with a little. The writer, I believe, was for two weeks, a journalist with a bomb squad during the Iraq War. The whole film is grounded in reality. That's what makes it scary. Because there are so many terrifying things in our world, we don't need to make anything up.

R.L.: What do you think about, who? Someone famous said it. But all war movies are pro war because it's a movie, it's entertainment like you want to be watching it, which means you want the war to happen to an extent. I don't know if I really buy that. What do you think?

A.C.: I think that's definitely been true, and I think especially like looking at the history of film and war, like World War II propaganda, even Disney was in on it. That's how crazy we were getting around that time period. “Hurt Locker” is different. “Go Army” ads were very convincing to me in elementary school. The Navy sounded awesome, but “Hurt Locker” is a much more critical piece of war. I can't think of a single hand to hand combat moment. The bomb defusal takes longer, but that's not even sense, that's just building up tension, mostly through sound, honestly, sound and performance. There's really not a ton of fighting. It feels like a lot happens, even though you calling it a road trip movie, it's like the worst road trip ever, but it's still purely on a form basis it is closer to a road trip movie than an action movie or even a war movie, just because it's more about the relationships between these men than it is about the bombs, even though the bombs are what drive them to go from place to place. It's such an odd war movie. 

R.L.: No combat scene in this movie is more than like a couple people, and that speaks to how war has changed over time. You don't need these giant armies.

A.C.: When you fight somebody, just pure hand to hand combat, you learn so much about the other person, you're reacting to them. It is a very, it's a deadly dance, but at the same time, it is still a dance where you're both improvising off of the other. Guns in modern warfare, you don't have that anymore. What was once a human being just becomes a target. The Iraqi people don't necessarily have a voice in this film, and so you could argue that's a perspective issue. I would say that their story isn't within the scope of the film, because it's so pointed into the experience of the bomb squad. 

“When you fight somebody, just pure hand to hand combat, you learn so much about the other person, you're reacting to them. It is a very, it's a deadly dance, but at the same time, it is still a dance where you're both improvising off of the other. Guns in modern warfare, you don't have that anymore. What was once a human being just becomes a target.”

R.L.: This is a movie that is set five years before it came out, so it's a very fresh conflict. It's not looking back at it with a lot of hindsight. 

A.C.: They were portrayed as people, and I think that sometimes gets lost in war movies which gets very gross and propaganda-y to watch at times. This film didn't do that. It continues this idea of, what are we turning our people into when we engage in conflicts like this?

R.L.: And I think it's also interested in, why are these guys here? Right? Because there was no draft, like they didn't have to be here.

A.C.: The first thing we see in this film is that we get a quote which likened war to an addiction. And I think there's certain motifs that we see in his civilian life, like the jack in the box. Jack in the box, you know, they usually play “Pop Goes the Weasel.” If something pops and is a surprise in the world that he's functioning. That's usually a very bad thing. 

R.L.: Oh yeah I didn’t think about that. The first scene where any of the guys talk about their backstory, where they have their like, nice little moment where he gives them the Capri Sun, which I really like. I wonder how many Best Picture winners have Capri Suns in them. This might be the only one. They might be in “Everything Everywhere All at Once,” who knows, there's a lot going on in that movie. I don't think so. 

A.C.: I don’t know. They strike me as an Honest Kids film, and not a Capri Sun film. You know what I mean?

R.L.: But Honest Kids sucked. 

A.C.: I kind of enjoy some of the berry flavors. 

R.L.: I'm so sorry I shouldn't have forced my viewpoint on you. 

A.C.: No no. I was also, maybe I was deprived. I didn't really have Capri Suns.

R.L.: I wasn't an Honest Kid. I was lying all the time.

A.C.: Damn. That's why you became a filmmaker.

R.L.: In a movie, which in like “Saving Private Ryan,” I love that they have that scene, they're all just like talking about their lives and what it's like back home. And that movie does a very good job of not making that feel cliche. But this movie subverts it even more because they don't bond over that. It's a very uncomfortable scene. It's really funny that they hard cut to them wrestling like punching each other with just the fact that that scene kind of twists the classic “This is where they all bond and talk about themselves.” Like these guys never really become friends, and they find the bomb parts underneath his bed. It's like he's living with this all the time. It's his whole life.

A.C.: That scene just hammers home that their lives aren't really back home, whereas “Saving Private Ryan,” and once again, that's a film that's based on a war with a draft, you have this communal experience of people being forced to fight, whereas the Iraq war didn't necessarily have that to the same degree at all. This is the life for these people, and it's like talking about life back home is like talking about a dream. It's not who they are to the same degree. I think it's safe to say there is inherently a critique of toxic masculinity and the need to win, war, defense, surviving each moment. Everything is so adrenaline fueled. And so I think the real question is, what's the purpose of fighting, and why do these men want to do it? And that disconnection shows that they're not really united. They're broken people at the end of the day.

“This is the life for these people, and it's like talking about life back home is like talking about a dream. It's not who they are to the same degree. I think it's safe to say there is inherently a critique of toxic masculinity and the need to win, war, defense, surviving each moment. Everything is so adrenaline fueled. And so I think the real question is, what's the purpose of fighting, and why do these men want to do it? And that disconnection shows that they're not really united. They're broken people at the end of the day.”

R.L.: I want to talk about the Jeremy Renner character and performance. I loved Hawkeye. He was my favorite superhero. 

A.C.: Really?

R.L.: It's a weird thing. This is my first time seeing this movie. I never really understood, like, what Jeremy Renner's deal was. He kind of presents himself like he's this movie star. And I think I get it now, because he's, I think he's so good in this movie, and he has a lot, he has a big role, because they set up Guy Pierce as the leader, and he was a movie star. And then he dies right away, and then Jeremy Renner has to fill his shoes. And I think Jeremy Renner does such a good job of playing a movie star in this world, like he's like a cowboy, like he is a renegade. But it's like, uncomfortable in this situation. You're like, “Why are you acting like a movie star? This is war.” 

A.C.: The bad boy who doesn't follow rules is such a film trope, and we see that all the time, and we love him. In “Hurt Locker” he's like a junkie, and it's like, you don't trust him. He can't be relied upon, in the sense of you can't, his teammates can't communicate with him. He's doing whatever he wants. I believe Jeremy Renner had a background in hair and makeup, and I think that's interesting, too, when you talk about him being this big actor seeming person, because you're seeing how these people are presenting themselves, and you can emulate that in your own way. The Hawkeye initiative, basically is artists who redraw Hawkeye in positions that women are usually featured in in comics.

R.L.: Because he’s the funny one. 

A.C.: Jeremy Renner just appeals to that sort of mentality. 

R.L.: He’s had the app. 

A.C.: Watching this again, I was like, “How did Jeremy Renner become that inspiration?” The meme-able one. This film is just, he was scary, and I have not viewed him as scary in anything he's been in since. It is historic, because it's the first female director to win an Oscar. And it's interesting that you see this film that talks a lot and critiques masculinity, being the first one done by a female director, does that surprise you as somebody who's been looking at all these past years of Oscar winners?

R.L.: I think it makes sense. It's not like Kathryn Bigelow took, like, a big turn in her career and did one movie about men, and then that's the one that won. 

A.C.: It's interesting to see films where men talk about the negative effects of masculinity versus women. Observing as a man, does it feel right to you or natural to you in any capacity? 

R.L.: I'm not much of a man. “Point Break” is so like campy and entrenched in like, sarcasm and satire, and I never heard that about this movie. I just thought it was kind of a normal war movie, I guess. It's not to the extent of “Point Break.” It's not that silly, but there is definitely this kind of sarcastic lens through which we're viewing these guys. And I think the most crucial thing is, I mentioned it before, but the hard cut to them wrestling and then punching each other.

A.C.: Comparing the homoeroticism of “Point Break” versus “The Hurt Locker.” “The Hurt Locker,” they don't connect like that's the whole point. It's really hard to be erotic if you're not connecting.

R.L.: The scene with the body bomb is so brutal. And then the even more disturbing to me is there's the other DVD kid afterwards who's doing the exact same thing and acting like he's the same guy. And Jeremy Renner’s like, “No.” And you kind of understand then a little bit why he's so distant to his own son with just this little arc he's had with this Iraqi kid. That kid's really good.

A.C.: No, when you see a good child actor, it's always very surprising, because most of the time they're like, “Okay, this was a great cast. And then this child actor, well, they did their best.” And so that was one where the child was on par with the other actors. 

R.L.: In his first scene, he like, says the N word and stuff. He just like, because obviously this little kid's consumed American culture, but he doesn't like, have the understanding of, like, what it means, but he's kind of just trying to appeal to these guys because he's a little salesman.

A.C.: And then also, you kind of wonder too, is where did he pick up? Because obviously the DVD motif, but also from other GIs he's been picking up Americanisms. 

R.L.: Oh, that's a good point. 

A.C.: I've noticed that there's always been an attempt from students to do a war movie. Every year there’s one or two. And it's interesting, because this is the only truly low budget war movie that I can think of that sells a war successfully. 

R.L.: This movie isn't like there's a huge war going on in the background. It's like, this is what the whole war is like. These little sand fights.

A.C.: Vignettes was a perfect word to describe them, because they're not massive scale fights at all. It's solely the direction that creates the tension. You see these people, and you're like, what humanity do they have in certain cases? And then how do they even view themselves based on the way they're acting? Do you think Jeremy Renner wants to die, or he just doesn't fear death? 

R.L.: I wrote down that he wants to die, but I don't know if I actually believe that.

A.C.: He’s doing death defying things, and that does lead to this feeling of god dom, almost. It's this god-like state that he finds himself in. It's really scary what those types of environments can do for a person.

R.L.: You mentioned that a lot of the tension is done through sound, which I wanted to circle back to. There's not a lot of score, but then sometimes it'll just be like a single tone. 

A.C.: The way that we get these like, almost frequency swells like it's not that there's anything playing, but it feels like. It's like, if somebody had written like a chill in the air in the script, they turned that into sound. You see what should be a hero's journey. It just doesn't pan out. You're not the same person you were when you started the journey. There's that end slot where you go back home in the hero's journey, what you define as home changes, and home became the war. For me, the ending of the film is what makes it a really good film for me. 

R.L.: The last line in the movie with the sun, some people only have one thing they care about.

A.C.: We can hear the choppers coming down again. That J cut, it's, like, devastating, because your hope is that he's just going to have to adjust to civilian life again, and then he'll be okay.

R.L.: When they cut to him, and he's walking out like a cool guy. He's so happy. And you're like, “Okay, now I get this entire movie.” Like, because before that's like, yeah, it's great. It's a great movie. But that's really the thing that kind of makes you reframe.

A.C.: When we fight wars, the goal is to end them, inherently. Conflicts exist to be resolved. He's like Sisyphus with the boulder. 

R.L.: Sisyphus doesn't have a choice. 

A.C.: There's a time when someone is just so tortured, you have to wonder, are they forced, in the sickest way by their own being, to do something? And it's, that's what makes it devastating for me, is I don't think that he's free. I think he's a prisoner of his own mind. And then that cereal aisle, those are the easiest decisions. What cereal do you want? What cereal? What cereal are you going to get? That ending scene is so different than everything else in the film, like I even remember the leaves on the trellis. 

R.L.: Yeah, scooping them out with his hand. Nasty!

A.C.: Another thing. There are devices you can use for that, you know? 

R.L.: He likes doing it himself. 

A.C.: I've cleaned gutters with my hands as a punishment, like when I was a kid and I lied gutter time. Then you see, he's with it for another year.

R.L.: He's so happy, though he's got a tour.

A.C.: It’s not happiness.

R.L.: I think he is most at peace when he's doing his bomb thing, for him. 

A.C.: I think it's security. It's purpose driven. And I don't think that joy is necessarily always purpose driven. I think joy exists at this intersection of what you're good at, what you want to do, what's good for society and then feeling safe. And he can't feel that. I think he's caught in a very specific form of joy. But I don't think it's joy. I think it is a trap, not to be Admiral Ackbar here, but I don't think he's happy.

R.L.: So there's been two more female directors, right? Chloe Zhao and Jane Campion, and then “Coda” was directed by a woman, same year as Jane Campion winning. In the 2010s there were none.

A.C.: It's fascinating to me that there was none in the 20th century, and then I don't believe a female cinematographer has won. 

R.L.: Ever?

A.C.: Ever. 

R.L.: How many cinematographers are there even, like five?

A.C.: Representation needs to happen on all levels of production. It's not just the directors. It's not just the primary storytellers. I think we've hit some milestones, but not others yet. “The Hurt Locker” is a reminder of where we're coming from, and so I'm curious where we can go. 

R.L.: Do you think it's getting better? 

A.C.: I just want good stories, man, but I don't know if we're getting better necessarily. I think there are more opportunities for women. For example, like I'm part of a producing mentorship started by a producer at NBCU [National Broadcasting Company Universal], there's a lot of avenues now for women to learn from and be mentored by other women in the industry that there hasn't been in time past. But what that means for time future I know not.

R.L.: I got one last question, are you a plane guy or a train guy? 

A.C.: Trains have been very formative to what America is. The American diner is built on the train architecture and what dining cars used to look like, because that's where booths come from. I love public transportation with all of my heart. I grew up in San Francisco. We have Muni, we have BART [Bay Area Rapid Transit], we have sandram planes. It's great that we've made them. 

R.L.: Defying God, some would say. 

A.C.: Perhaps. We need to fix our air traffic control systems. 

R.L.: Just so they don't run into each other?

A.C.: Yeah, and there’s been a lot of near misses lately, because we don't have enough air traffic controllers, and a lot of them are overworked.

R.L.: No security on trains too. Bring a bomb for all they care, which is pretty cool. 

A.C.: I've been on Caltrain where I saw a guy with an ankle bracelet that was beeping and letting us all know that he shouldn't have been on that train. 

R.L.: That’s pretty awesome. I was on the trolley, kind of like a drunk. He's like, “You're just you're an NPC, you're plugged into the matrix.” And he kept saying that for like, an hour, not an hour, but like, 10 minutes. And then the other guy was, like, this nerd. He had, like, big glasses and like, he was like, “Maybe you should stop watching so many movies and spend more time in college.” Then the other guy roped me into it. He said, “Hey, I'm just, lend me some grace. I just don't live in your world.” And I was like, “Hmm,” and he was like,” You're just like them. You're an NPC, you're plugged into the matrix.” And I was like, “Maybe you're right.” Well, the music's playing and they're yanking me off the stage with the cane. I never say this, but the best guest award goes to you. Athena Cheris.

A.C.: Thank you for having me on. 

R.L.: Thank you for being here. And be sure to check out Athena's Instagram and her work at the Loyolan. 

R.L.: The Best Picture Show is a podcast hosted by Ryan Luetzow and produced by ROAR Studios. Opinions and ideas expressed in this podcast are those of individual student content creators and are not those of Loyola Marymount University, its board of trustees or its student body. You can subscribe to us on Spotify and Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to follow us at watch listen roar. This episode was produced by Ryan Luetzow. Special thanks to Emma Russell for technical guidance and Associate Producer Emma Singletary. Thank you to Athena Cheris for joining us, and thank you so much for listening. Play us out.