Ryan Luetzow (R.L.): The Oscars are 97 years old. From “Wings” to an “Anora,” movies have changed a lot in that time. That's why I'm looking back at one Best Picture winner from each decade to try and understand the movies that were at one time called the best. This is The Best Picture Show. Welcome to The Best Picture Show, the show about the very best trains. My name is Ryan Luetzow, and today we're talking about “The French Connection,” which is a neo noir, and that's why today I have with me a lover of the noir, Madison Tyler. Hi, Madison. 

Madison Tyler (M.T.): Hi. Thanks for having me.

R.L.: So you like the noir genre? 

M.T.: Yeah, I'm a big fan. My favorites are classical ones and neo noir as well. So yeah, just fell in love with the genre, I guess. 

R.L.: Humphrey Bogart? Or how classic? 

M.T.: My favorites are, yeah, that far back. So like, “Double Indemnity,” “Sunset Boulevard.” “Sorry Wrong Number” might be a deep cut. I don't know how many people have seen that one, but I also like more recent ones, like “Bound” or “Deep Cover” with Laurence Fishburne. 

R.L.: Oh, yeah. Had you seen “The French Connection” before? 

M.T.: I hadn't. 

R.L.: No. 

M.T.: So this is my first time watching it.

R.L.: It's like noir adjacent. A lot of people classify it as like an action movie. There's, like the big action sequence in the middle with the train, the really famous one. But also it's a lot of mystery, I guess. But also the mystery also doesn't really matter, like it's not really structured in a normal way. It's a lot of characters walking around and just kind of hanging out exactly. It's kind of strange. It’s a lot of characters just walking around and just kind of hanging out. It’s kind of strange. What'd you think of it? 

M.T.: I was definitely surprised. There was a lot about noir that I love that it did not have, which is perfectly fine. Like, I love a femme fatale. It’s all men. 

R.L.: It’s very male. 

M.T.: I love, like, you know, the relationship stuff that's in, there's no relation here. 

R.L.: No, they all hate each other.

M.T.: But I think what I appreciated, like, because this is 1971, right? It definitely was giving new age for sure. 

R.L.: Oh, yeah? 

M.T.: So I love the cinematography, like cinema verite, handheld camera. Could definitely see how it could be a precursor to shows like, you know, “Cops,” even the end credits, where they're, like, “This person was sentenced to…”

R.L.: Very documentary. 

M.T.: Yeah, it's very interesting. 

R.L.: So this kind of ushered in that wave of 70s, like grimy, “Godfather,” “Deer Hunter,” all those movies taking over. William Friedkin, who directed this movie, he actually said that he always kind of wanted to make a fiction feature in the style of a documentary. But it was until he saw the movie “Z,” which I hadn't heard of, that he realized that that could actually be done, and so he really modeled this movie after documentaries and, like, French New Wave. So yeah, there's a lot of like, you were saying, like, verite style in this, and that's very unusual, and it makes the movie not awkward. But, like, I don't want to keep saying weird, because that's not a good word, but it's like, weird. 

M.T.: We're just not used to it. I think with documentary, depending on the style of documentary, it can either be really immersive or in an interesting way, create some sort of distance, just depending on the mode of documentary. Like you don't have all of the information, I guess it's relying on whatever the image is. 

R.L.: They can't just show you everything, because they didn't get everything. 

M.T.: Yeah. So with this, it's kind of like, I don't know if I, at a certain point, was rooting for a certain character or…

R.L.: Popeye's a real scumbag. 

M.T.: Yeah, like, kind of a racist. 

R.L.: Oh, definitely, they're all racist. But it also doesn't like condemn them. There's definitely an argument to be made that a stupid person could watch this movie and be like, “Yeah, I like that guy,” and then they just be racist, because this movie doesn't really do anything to like, condemn him. But also, I think anybody with like, moral sense would be like, “This guy sucks.” 

M.T.: Right. And I think that's the thing with documentary. You can either do a style of documentary where you just present people as they are, without you, as the documentarian making commentary on what you're watching, and hopefully the audience is more left to like come to their own conclusion. So if anything, I guess, it’s kind of following that mode of documentary, or inspiration of documentary. 

R.L.: The one thing that makes this movie feel to me like, not like that is that there's these long stretches of no dialogue, no music, just outside people like walking, looking at each other, you know, long, long, long shots, super wide. But then also the sound is like only their footsteps and like just sometimes a car sound. It's not like the hustle and bustle of New York. It's very quiet. And that was really interesting and unnerving to me, because that makes it feel like unrealistic, like soundstage style, which is, this is not a sound stage. 

M.T.: I didn't even think about that. I think sound is such a fun, maybe they wanted us to, you know, for the city, sounds to fade away in that moment, for some reason. 

R.L.: Originally, William Friedkin wanted Paul Newman to play the lead, and they did not have the money for that. And I think that's good, because Paul Newman is too like much of a star.

M.T.: Too sweet. 

R.L.: Too handsome and Gene Hackman, rest in peace, legend just passed away, but he's just incredible at being like, he's not always a scumbag, and he's handsome-ish, but he's also kind of ugly, like, in a great way, I love him. He's like, has that Jack Nicholson quality. He feels like a star, but also a real person, like, unlike Jack Nicholson, who is kind of always off putting, Gene Hackman feels very sensitive, I think. I don't know what it is about him, but he feels like somebody who's trying to act tough, but Gene Hackman feels like he can break down crying. I think he's really great in this movie. 

M.T.: No, it's such a good point. Casting can change a whole vibe. You know, Paul Newman, yeah, too pretty for this movie. 

R.L.: Yeah. And Roy Scheider is a little bit, I mean, he doesn't have the name of Paul Newman, but he's a little more, like, traditionally, like, kind of your leading guy, but he's the partner, and he also sucks. Like, he's not a good guy. Neither of them were particularly big names, yeah, I think this was both of their first big thing. Roy Scheider had a huge 70s “Jaws,” “All That Jazz.” Have you seen “All That Jazz?”

M.T.: Not yet. 

R.L.: That's one of my favorites.

M.T.: It’s on my list.

R.L.: Have you seen “Jaws?” 

M.T.: Yeah!

R.L.: Okay, okay. I love him because I obviously knew him first from “Jaws,” and he's such a sweetie in “Jaws,” and then I feel like everything else I've seen him in he's played like a scumbag. But because I know him from “Jaws,” I still.

M.T.: It's called having range. Yeah, I guess that's the thing that links this to kind of like a traditional noir film, is that usually the protagonists are kind of anti heroes, or kind of unlikable, or they're morally gray.

R.L.: Usually it's like they're charming too, right? Like they're charming, and this movie is not.

M.T.: That’s the thing this moving is lacking.

R.L.: He's not charming and I kind of respect that. I don't know, you don't like him, I don't like anyone in this movie. And then the bad guys are like they're just drug guys, like they're not murderers. I mean, well, one guy does shoot a mom, sniper. 

M.T.: That scene is crazy. 

R.L.: And that's, the best part of the movie, because, like, “You should get this guy,” you know? I think that's intentional. It's like, that leads into the giant, big chase scene. You really want him to get that guy, because he just shot a mom so I think that's smart. And that that chase scene. I mean, I'm a big train lover. I'm a big lover of trains and movies, and everyone's always like, “Oh, “The French Connection” train scene.” So I was like, I knew there was a train scene, but I didn't know really what it was. It's so cool because it's not just a train scene, it's also a car scene. And it's like, going back and forth, and there's, he's like, driving underneath the train, like, and he's crashing into everybody. And there's like, these famous POV bumper shots where they had the camera mounted on the front of the train, in the front of the car, so you're swerving through. 

M.T.: Such a great chase scene, I will say. So have you seen “Collateral” then? Have you seen the train?

R.L.: I have not. 

M.T.: Oh my gosh, you’ve got to see that. 

R.L.: It's embarrassing, I know. And I love Michael Mann. I just, it's embarrassing. Like, I loved,. I liked “Ferrari.” People don't like “Ferrari.” I thought “Ferrari” was good. 

R.L.: It's based on a book, which is interesting to me, because, what's the book? You know, because it's so like, visual and movie-ish, I feel like, and it's not like this particularly complicated, intriguing plot. The main character is Popeye Doyle, which is a great name. I love when characters have weird names, Point Break, Johnny Utah. Or just like, I mean, it's not a place in this but like, I love when the character has like a place in their name, Johnny Utah, Indiana Jones, you know, like stuff like that. But also, I guess, just Popeye. It's a nickname. His name's Jimmy, I think, yeah, it's great. It just adds a lot of texture to the character. It's like he did something to get the name Popeye. And then Roy Scheider is Loudy. They're good names, I think that's a staple of noir is like having good names. And then the bad guys are all French dudes. William freaking Saw, Belle de Jour, and he really liked one of the guys in it, but he didn't know his name, so he was like, give me that guy. And then it wasn't that guy. He thought it was, but then it was listed different French guy, and so he cast him in the movie, but I don't know. I guess he thought it was good enough. 

M.T.: Happy accident. 

R.L.: To win Best Picture, that would never happen now. It's like, such a scrappy, I mean “Anora” just won, that’s a scrappy movie, but scrappy in a different way. Like, I mean, Pauline Kael did not like this movie, critic from the time she called it “jock jolting.” Like, it's like, just for stupid people. Like, I don't know, because it's not trying to say anything? I don't know. I would disagree with that, but, like, even “The Godfather” definitely has stuff to say, and I think this movie does too it’s just much subtler and not the forefront of the movie. 

“To win Best Picture, that would never happen now. It's like, such a scrappy, I mean “Anora” just won, that’s a scrappy movie, but scrappy in a different way. Like, I mean, Pauline Kael did not like this movie, critic from the time she called it “jock jolting.” Like, it's like, just for stupid people. Like, I don't know, because it's not trying to say anything? I don't know. I would disagree with that, but, like, even “The Godfather” definitely has stuff to say, and I think this movie does too it’s just much subtler and not the forefront of the movie. “

M.T.: So enlighten me. What do you think it's trying to say?

R.L.: I think it's just trying to show that cops are just chasing people, and they all get away in the end, and it doesn't matter. Like, I think it's just very nihilist. I wouldn't say it's like a message movie, or anything like that, or even like a particularly thematic movie. I think it's about something. I think that's what, do you agree with that? 

M.T.: Yeah, I can definitely see that. And I think that definitely fits within the vibe of the 70s and the kind of questioning of authority and institution, you know, like the police. Capturing the grittiness of New York City at that time. 

R.L.: I mean, this movie, New York is grimy, but it's also, like, empty. It's really weird, and I think that maybe that's the sound contributing to that feeling too. But there's just not a lot of people, like “Taxi Driver” is so like, full of scoundrels around every corner. And this movie is not. 

M.T.: Yeah, I wonder what area of New York? 

R.L.: Think it said Brooklyn.

M.T.: Brooklyn? There were some places that were a little bit dilapidated, like abandoned. 

R.L.: The location of the last scene. I don't know what it's supposed to be, but it's just like everything's wet and like, there's this, like crumpled trash everywhere. It's, like, really nasty. And then he, like, walks into the darkness at the end. In the ending, he kills one of the other police people on accident, because he doesn't even look to see who it is before he shoots him, because he's so, like, obsessed with just catching this guy. And then he walks into the darkness, and there's, like, another gunshot. So I was like, “Oh, it's ambiguous.” But then the text confirms that basically everybody is alive. So I don't know what the gun show was supposed to be, but. 

M.T.: A mystery within a mystery. An enigma.

R.L.: To me, like movies should try to say something, but it's not the end all be all of like, whether a movie's good or not, the craft and quality can kind of speak on its own, but it's weird to see a movie like that win Best Picture.

M.T.: Right. Do you know what other movies it was competing with that year? 

R.L.: “Fiddler on the Roof,” “The Last Picture Show,” which is one of my favorite movies, and what the podcast is named after, “A Clockwork Orange” and “Nicholas and Alexandra,” which I don't know that one. But “Clockwork Orange.” Wow. I mean, I know that was super controversial when it came out. It got a video nasty in the UK, which is what they called X. 

M.T.: Oh wow. 

R.L.: Video nasty!

M.T.: I still haven't seen “Clockwork Orange.”

R.L.: I mean, I can see why it wouldn't win. It's very upsetting. Last week to show another very nihilistic movie. People were not happy in the 70s. I mean, you could look at any 70s movie and figure that out. 

M.T.: One of the times the Academy is maybe rewarding something for being new.

R.L.: Definitely. I think that's what's cool about the 70s in the Oscars, because the 60s are back and forth, like, new Hollywood, old Hollywood. It's like basically alternating years, “In the Heat of the Night” or like “Midnight Cowboy” And then it's like, “Oliver,” “My Fair Lady.” It's like, back and forth. It's really weird. And then the 70s, they're like, “All right, we know what's going on now.” Besides “The Sting,” which I love “The Sting,” but it feels very 60s. It's just like these newer, grimier, usually crime movies with like the next generation, De Niro, Pacino, Gene Hackman. Have you seen “The Conversation?”

M.T.: No, that's also on my list of movies to watch. 

R.L.: Another very nihilistic movie, Gene Hackman, so good in that. Very different performance, much more sensitive and quiet, but he does play the saxophone in two scenes, and it's rad. He has a nice mustache. Yeah, that's a really sad movie, but very good. The fact that Gene Hackman, it's even more remarkable that he won Best Actor, because it's just such an un-showy performance. 

M.T.: Yeah, when I first was introduced to the Oscars, I guess they do like a little clip of like “the moment.”

R.L.: Yeah, like the Oscar clip. 

M.T.: Like Denzel. You know, what would be his like moment? 

R.L.: Probably him beating up some minorities. He does a lot of that in this movie. 

M.T.: I know. 

R.L.: But like, that's what the cops were doing in the 70s. 

M.T.: That’s true. There was a recent Hulu TV series called “Chinatown,” that's an adaptation of a book. It's basically like a meta, sort of commentary on the way Hollywood crime films have, like, put their seedy things within Chinatown where, like, Chinese people, Chinese immigrants, Chinese Americans, are sort of the background to, a white person's story or whatever, but then it kind of shifts the focus to the people who are actually in those communities. So that's why I kind of felt watching some of the scenes where they're in, like predominantly black neighborhoods, or like clubs and establishments, I mean, that's something that is lacking. And I'm here at LMU as a film student, and hopefully can kind of insert us into this canon of, like crime films and action and everything, but in an interesting way. But if people do want to watch something that is centered on black people, I recommend “Deep Cover” with Lawrence Fishburne. There's also a Spike Lee movie that I just learned about called “Clockers,” I think that’s supposed to be a noir film?

“So that's why I kind of felt watching some of the scenes where they're in, like predominantly black neighborhoods, or like clubs and establishments, I mean, that's something that is lacking. And I'm here at LMU as a film student, and hopefully can kind of insert us into this canon of, like crime films and action and everything, but in an interesting way.” 

R.L.: Yeah that’s Spike Lee. I don't think it's an accident that this movie shows so much brutality to people of color. I don't think it paints the cops in a particularly good light, you know, and he even, when he catches the sniper, he shoots him in the back, the police who, like, advised on the movie, were like, that's murder. That's not self defense. And William Friedkin was like, “Okay, I'm keeping it in.” Because it's based on some real people and he was, like, from what I know about the guy that Popeye is based on, it's like he would probably do that. 

M.T.: Right. 

R.L.: Yeah. I think he's a really not likable main character. Like, in a good way. It's better to show this than to just ignore it, because that's what was happening. And still happens. 

M.T.: Yeah. I think unless you're an informed person, leave the people of color's point of view to us. Let us tell our story. 

R.L.: Yeah, so, like, this is, like, kind of the next best thing, right? Like, cops are bad. 

M.T.: It’s an interesting like time capsule, for sure, because, I mean, more people have an understanding of, like, the war on drugs, and like drugs in black communities and in New York specifically. So it's just definitely interesting, like looking back and watching this with that sort of context, and then thinking about how it may have landed with audiences at the time and how it's engaging with what the city was like at the time.

R.L.: It's so interesting that this came out, like, directly in the middle of that. It's not a period piece. If this was, like a war on drugs movie that was actually like propaganda or whatever, like Nixon, “We need to stop this.” It wouldn't show such like an unlikable character doing it. And all the people who are in control of it are these rich French people. Like, it's not like random people on the street, not the people who are getting arrested. All those people get away with it in the end, which is what I think is interesting about this movie. And it wouldn't show them just barging into random clubs with people minding their own business and just like arresting all these people for basically nothing. So that's why I think the movie is at least engaging in an interesting way.

M.T.: It’s subversive. I don't know if it was like an actual girl group, but the R&B girl group performed towards the beginning. 

R.L.: Yeah, in the club. 

M.T.: Love them.

R.L.: They killed it. 

M.T.: It’s giving Supremes.

R.L.: Yeah, Supremes. The Fawns.

M.T.: That was definitely one of the highlights. 

R.L: They keep cutting back to them, like they're not just in the background, and like, obviously everyone in the club is all white, and then they're the female performing. I think it's like…

M.T.: It could add to sort of that subversive aspect.

R.L: Yeah I don't think any of that's like an accident. It's not at the forefront, but like, interesting, if you're looking for it. Oh, yeah. It's also funny that you just he starts the movie dressed as Santa, talking to these little kids. It's funny. And then they go into a bar and beat a bunch of people up. Is this movie a Christmas movie? They, at the end, say that he's been on the case for two months, so if it starts in December, it would end in February, I guess maybe not a Christmas movie, but you could watch the beginning of it at Christmas.

R.L.: Are you a plane guy or a train guy? I always ask it, but this time, it actually is relevant. 

M.T.: I'm going to go with trains. I'd rather be on the ground. There's been a lot happening in the sky lately.

R.L.: Oh yeah. No one's brought that up. That’s a good point. 

M.T.: I do get anxiety from flights. 

R.L.: Well, the music's playing and they're yanking me off the stage with a cane. I never say this, but the best guest award goes to you, Madison Tyler, thank you so much for being on the show. 

M.T.: Oh, thank you for having me. 

R.L.: Do you have anything you want to plug?

M.T.: Just remember my name, hopefully I make a good movie one day that people know about. 

R.L.: Yeah, okay, cool. All right, that's it, thank you. 

R.L.: The Best Picture Show is a podcast hosted by Ryan Luetzow and produced by ROAR Studios. Opinions and ideas expressed in this podcast are those of individual student content creators and are not those of Loyola Marymount University, its board of trustees or its student body. You can subscribe to us on Spotify and Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to follow us at watch listen roar. This episode was produced by Ryan Luetzow. Special thanks to Emma Russell for technical guidance and associate producer Emma Singletary. Thank you to Madison Tyler for joining us, and thank you so much for listening. Play us out.