Ryan Luetzow (R.L.): The Oscars are 97 years old. From “Wings” to “Anora,” movies have changed a lot in that time. That's why I'm looking back at one Best Picture winner from each decade to try and understand the movies that were, at one time, called the best. This is the Best Picture Show. Welcome to the Best Picture Show, the show about the very best English accents. My name is Ryan Luetzow and today we're talking about “My Fair Lady,” a good old fashioned movie musical, which is why today I have with me musical aficionado, Brooke Pegues. Hi, Brooke.

Brooke Pegues (B.P.): Hello, Ryan. Thank you for having me. 

R.L.: Of course. Thank you so much for being here. So, you are involved in musicals, yes? 

B.P.: Yes! So, at LMU, I did a play. I never did a musical here, but I'm just a musical lover. I enjoy it. I like listening to it. I think “Wicked” reinvented something in me that I forgot, that I had, you know? Like, I was a musical theater kid growing up, and then I came to college and that, I didn't study musical theater, I just liked it, and now I'm back, musical theater heavy. 

R.L.: We're talking about “My Fair Lady” today. I was kind of debating between that and “Sound of Music,” which came out back to back years, and both won Best Picture. The reason I wanted to do a musical for the 60s was because the 60s were the transition point between old Hollywood and new Hollywood. And the old Hollywood studio system is kind of represented by musicals in a lot of ways. Those were kind of like the biggest movies and the 60s, like Best Picture winners were kind of going back and forth between these, big, extravagant musicals, like “Oliver,” “My Fair Lady,” “Sound of Music,” and these, like drama, new Hollywood, like “In the Heat of the Night,” “Midnight Cowboy.” I wanted to do something to represent, like, the last wave of, like, the big classic musical. To me, in my head, I hadn't really seen “My Fair Lady,” so it's just kind of like one of those names, you know, but I didn't really know anything about it. You've seen it before. Have you seen the musical live? 

B.P.: Okay, I was thinking about that, and I don't think I have. I was getting confused with another musical that I now can't remember what I saw, but I have not seen it live. Used to do private voice lessons, so I sang the song where she's like, “I could have danced all night.” 

R.L.: Yeah, that's the one song I knew. 

B.P.: Yeah, yeah. I sang that in high school. So, I knew it from that. And then I think that's what made me watch the movie, so I guess it wasn’t that long ago. 

R.L.: Are you a “Pygmalion” head at all? Are you a big fan of “Pygmalion?” 

B.P.: Not quite. 

R.L.: So “My Fair Lady” is based on “Pygmalion,” which was a book and then a play, and then “My Fair Lady” was a book and then a musical and then a movie. So musicals always have that weird thing where they're like, there's so many types of adaptation. It's like, it's a musical based on a story, based on a play, from a book, based on a movie. It's so funny. Everything gets a musical adaptation, I feel like. 

B.P.: I was just thinking about that, like, how long it took them to actually do “Wicked” and, like, what I was thinking about, what could be next? And I honestly don't know. Do you have a prediction?

R.L.: Do you think they're going to do “Hamilton?” I feel like they're going toat some point, but I feel like it's so Obama era. 

B.P.: Yeah. Oh, totally. 

R.L.: So I feel like they have to, something has to change before they’re ready.

B.P.: Yeah, it’ll be four plus years, it will be in development under the cover, and then it'll come out the day that we all can breathe again, they’ll be like “And we're getting Hamilton." 

R.L.: I love “Hadestown.” I feel like that one would be better than “Hamilton,” because “Hamilton” is very, so culturally specific to like 2015.

B.P.: Oh totally. 

R.L.: I don't know. What about you? 

B.P.: Yeah, I guess I would want to see “Hamiliton.” I just feel like they did, like the live.

R.L.: It’s definitely not required. I just feel like money wise, it's going to make a billion dollars if they do it so. 

B.P.: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

R.L.: What about you? Is there, like, a musical you really want to see turn into a movie? 

B.P.: I would love an updated version of “Rent.” 

R.L.: I've never seen “Rent.” I saw the “Tick, Tick… Boom!” movie. I loved that.

B.P.: Okay, Ryan, you’ve got to see “Rent.”

R.L.: Really? I feel like everyone always, people like it and then don't like it. I'm like, I don't know, do you like it?

B.P.: Well, yeah. 

R.L.: Okay I’ll watch it then.

B.P.: Sorry, this is not about my favorite movie. 

R.L.: Is the “Rent” movie good? 

B.P.: Oh, it's so good. I would totally recommend it. I think it’s the original cast, but don't quote me on that. I'm sorry, I need to, like, preface this. Like, if there are musical theater people out here, like myself. Nerds like myself. I'm not always accurate, so don't bully me in the comments if I’m not accurate on everything, okay.

R.L.: Speaking of original cast, Rex Harrison was in the original cast of “My Fair Lady.” He's in this movie and, oh my god, I think this is like the most hateable character I've ever seen as a protagonist in anything, and I think that's the point.

B.P.: Right. Kind of. 

R.L.: I feel like it's supposed to be the point. And then the whole movie, I'm like, I was feeling so conflicted because I didn't know about this story really at all. I knew kind of the basics. How on the side of this guy is this movie because he's so awful. 

B.P.: Do you think he's awful in today's eyes? Or do you think he’s awful even then?

R.L.: I think he's awful in the eyes of the time because even the other misogynist guy is like, nicer in the movie. And I feel like the movie understands that until, literally, the last minute of the movie. 

B.P.: Yeah. 

R.L.: The second half of the movie, I was so on board. I'm like, yes, f*ck him up Eliza. My favorite scene in the movie was the two old guys complimenting each other, “You did such a good job.” “You did such a good job.” And she's standing in the background, so good. And then she sings that song where it's like, “everything will go on without you,” all that stuff. And then she leaves, and I'm like, “Oh my god, is this going to be amazing?,” you know? And he sings a song, still trying to justify himself, but he's like, also clearly, like, in love with her in a little way, but like, in an awful way, where he, like, still doesn't really recognize her as a person, because even when he quote unquote, “likes her”, it's as like another object, a different form of an object, and then she comes back in the end. 

B.P.: But that, like her coming back to me, is so telling of the time. Like, I guess that couldn't work now. 

R.L.: I don't know. It would just be a different tone. 

B.P.: Yeah, true. 

R.L.: Because her coming back is interesting, but I feel like the movie doesn't know that she's not able to live in any other life because she tries to go back to her home, and it doesn't work, no one recognizes her. We don't see it, but assuming she's trying to, like, fit into high society, she doesn't really fit in there either. So she has nowhere else to go, then it's like, kind of a horrifying ending. He sucks. 

“Because her coming back is interesting, but I feel like the movie doesn't know that she's not able to live in any other life because she tries to go back to her home, and it doesn't work, no one recognizes her. We don't see it, but assuming she's trying to, like, fit into high society, she doesn't really fit in there either. So she has nowhere else to go, then it's like, kind of a horrifying ending. He sucks.”

B.P.: Yeah.

R.L.: I don't know what she's talking about. That she'd, like, grown accustomed to him. When?

B.P.: Literally.

R.L.: He was never kind to her, not a single time. 

B.P.: Looking at through like a feminist lens or just like a regular person, you can be like, “Oh, like, that doesn't really make sense.” But it's also like, I don’t know, love was so odd. I mean, I don't know, like, yeah, I guess you do anything for love or for when you've been trained to love. 

R.L.: I don’t think either of them are in love with each other though. I don't think she likes him romantically, even, like in the movie. She's singing that song to him about how the world will go on without you. She's like, “I love you in, like, a friendship way.” And then he obviously didn't think that, but he's like, “Yeah, me too.” And yeah, I kind of think the movie is setting up an ending where she doesn't come back, even if it's not like the most like feminist thing or whatever, because she's still just getting married to a different guy. I don't think it's like just a reflection of the time period that that happens. I think it's like wanting to force a happy ending, but I think the happier ending is if she doesn't come back. I don't know.

B.P.: But then it doesn't feel, I don't know. I feel like a happy ending is more or less just a full circle. Like, I feel like that's what people look for in all movies, like whether or not it actually makes sense. Like “La La Land” when it's, like, that whole, like, last sequence of the what if, and so that's not complete, and I feel like people feel so unsatisfied with endings like that. No, the viewer shouldn't have wanted them together? It's like, well, here's the closure, and maybe closure is just as good as any happy ending, question mark?

R.L.: Question mark. I don't know. Still though, I'm like, it's not a romance. They're never in love. So it was just the movie doesn't even want to show them being in love. So I just found that really surprising. And I was looking into, like, the history of adaptations, and in every single form of like, the “Pygmalion” story being adapted, like the ending is what is, like, controversial, because the original, so he wrote it, they don't end up together. Then the first play adaptation, the director added that ending, and the guy who wrote “Pygmalion" was pissed. He's like, “That's not what it's about,” you know? It's not a romance. They're not supposed to be together. And then, yeah, so then they're the “My Fair Lady” people kept that, the musical people and people were mad actually that they they kept that a little bit like people who are fans of the original story, because they're, like, “The whole story is about this monster manipulating her, and then her becoming a lady.” Not in the sense of, like she can talk good, but like she can think for herself and realize when she's being manipulated. And then they just kind of tack on that thing. And it's not, you know, the worst ending, like, it's not like, she's like, “Oh, I love you,” and everything, but like, she just comes back. And then he says, “Bring me my slippers” at the end. And I'm like, I know it's supposed to be, like, a jokey line where it's like, “Oh, he's back at it again,” but he should not be back at it again. 

B.P.: Because I watched this around I think it was like 2019, the first time I watched it. So then it reminds me of like “Little Women” when Jo is trying to sell the book to the publishing guy, and he's like, “Where's the happy ending? She doesn't end up with the guy.” And then she's like, “Well, she doesn't marry him.” And then he's like, “Rewrite it. People want to see a happy ending. People want to see them together.” And so like, even though Jo never loved whatever, the French guy, I don’t remember his name.

R.L.: And that's what's really genius about Greta Gerwig's “Little Women,” she's able to have the happy ending, but also have the happy ending for Jo. 

B.P.: Oh that movie is so good. Get me on a podcast about that.

R.L.: I'll do “Little Women" podcast next. I'll watch, I'll read “Little Women,” I'll watch every adaptation. 

B.P.: Okay, bring me back. 

R.L.: Yes.

B.P.: I will do that. 

R.L.: No, I'm only going to have men on the podcast. Men on “Little Women.”

R.L.: If you don't know “My Fair Lady” is about Eliza Doolittle, who is Audrey Hepburn doing the craziest cockney accent of all time. Like this was the same year as “Mary Poppins,” who everyone always makes fun of Dick Van Dyke's cockney accent. But it’s like, to me that was kind of a joke, you know, like, it's never supposed to be serious. I think this one's funny too, but it's, like, so extreme, and she screams in every single scene when she's doing it. It’s not just that she talks different. She's like, screaming. 

B.P.: I read online that, I guess Julie Andrews was originally supposed to play that role. 

R.L.: Oh, interesting. 

B.P.: And then something happened with Aubrey Hepburn, and then, I don't know, and then she got “Mary Poppins,” and so it didn't matter, but it was like, drama. And she was like, “I was supposed to be in the video,” you know, like, that was her. 

R.L.: Because Audrey Hepburn didn't sing in the movie. They dubbed it. 

B.P.: They dubbed it. I guess she did a little bit of singing, like, because she wanted to sing soprano, so she sang, like, a teeny bit. 

R.L.: Yeah, and she didn't get an Oscar nomination for this movie. Not even nominated Audrey Hepburn because I think people were like you didn't even sing you know? And she's kind of the only one who didn't do that. This movie was nominated for everything, won like a million things. Rex Harrison won. His mom was nominated, even though she's, like, barely in it, but she was good, and then her dad was nominated. 

B.P.: Okay, yeah. 

R.L.: He has his own little subplot, which is, like, kind of not related to anything, but he has like, two songs. I mean, he's, like, amazing. He has an amazing screen presence, like the dad just being silly. I feel like it's very like theater, you know, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the story. And then she just wasn't honored for anything. And I think she's really great in the movie. Even though she is like, so over the top in the first half, I think she kind of has to be, because she's Audrey Hepburn.

B.P.: Right, right.

R.L.:  So if you want to believe her as like this, like, whatever he calls her, like vile insect, or whatever she kind of has to be so, like, scummy. Rex Harrison is this linguistics expert who is obsessed with, like, the purity of the English language and, like, I guess, like ultra, he can detect where anyone's, like, from, and like the opening song of the movie is, “Why can't the English speak English” or whatever. He makes a bet with his rich friend that he can, like, turn Eliza into, like, a lady. I don't know. He doesn't really have any motivation, because he's already rich. 

B.P.: Yeah, it's more or less just, like, him trying to prove that he could do it. 

R.L.: Yeah, because he has such a big ego, and, like, and he thinks so, like, lowly of her. And the whole movie is him, like, changing her personality and everything. But then she, kind of, in the second half, she kind of becomes more of the protagonist, and like, you realize that's like, this is really awful for her. He has her, like, trapped in, like, this like torture device where she's like, she can only be freed once she makes a straight line with her voice. There's so many, like, doodads and stuff, because, like, obviously, before a lot of technology, but I was really intrigued by all the language doodads that they create, like the lines on the paper, and there's like, all these records and stuff. And, like, it's like a house of horrors. 

B.P.: It’s innovative for the time. 

R.L.: Because everyone's always going on like, all this droning. With some different tone, this movie would be really scary. 

B.P.: That’s an idea. My like, “Not so Fair Lady” 

R.L.: Oh yeah. It's like, the next “Winnie the Pooh Blood and Honey.”

B.P.: So I enjoy musicals. I feel like it to me, I love a classic musical. Like, I sometimes find myself feeling like contemporary musicals have lost themselves. I like, what's so simple about “My Fair Lady” is the simplicity of the music, and it's just so like, the whole point of musicals is like, when you run out of words to say, you sing like, and that's like, what this musical is, they're overcome with emotion or overcome with greed or sadness, whatever. So you sing, and so that's what I really like about it. I feel like the songs are really simple, and also it was kind of like, “This is, like, a little bit boring.” Like, I definitely said that a couple times. 

“So I enjoy musicals. I feel like it to me, I love a classic musical. Like, I sometimes find myself feeling like contemporary musicals have lost themselves. I like, what's so simple about “My Fair Lady” is the simplicity of the music, and it's just so like, the whole point of musicals is like, when you run out of words to say, you sing like, and that's like, what this musical is, they're overcome with emotion or overcome with greed or sadness, whatever. So you sing, and so that's what I really like about it. I feel like the songs are really simple, and also it was kind of like, “This is, like, a little bit boring.” Like, I definitely said that a couple times.” 

R.L.: There's a lot of talking for a musical. 

B.P.: Yeah. For a musical? For sure. Like, I was like, “Okay, it's like, a little bit older.” I was like, “This is just, like, taking a lot out of me.”

R.L.: It's three hours. 

B.P.: Yeah, right. Heavy on that. Like, three hours? 

R.L.: The plot starts, like, 45 minutes in. 

B.P.: Yeah, right, But, other than that, I actually really enjoyed the songs, and I think that structure might take out 30-40 minutes. Like, structure wise, perfect. 

R.L.: Yeah. Like you said, it's like, when you can't talk anymore, you sing. And then usually it's also when you can't sing anymore, you dance. Not a lot of dancing in this movie.

B.P.: Yeah.

R.L.: Not a lot of big like, “West Side Story,” like, dance numbers. It's not really that type of musical, I guess. But I haven't seen the live version, so I don't know if it's different. 

B.P.: Yeah, I guess I also haven't.

R.L.: The most musically scene is the horse race scene, because they have, like, they start with just like, this frozen tableau of all these people in black and white just staring at you. And it's like, creepy. They're like, talking about how excited they are for the race, but it's all, like, “I’m. So. Excited.” It’s like, incredible. And then the horses run by, they're just frozen, and then they're like, “Wow. So. Much. Fun.” It's, like, so good. I was cracking up. I think this movie's super funny. Rex Harrison and the guy who played Colonel Pickard were very funny. I think, oh, and Audrey Hepburn, obviously. Her scene at the horse races where she has learned to talk in this upper class voice, but is still saying the thing she would have said, so funny.

B.P.: Her delivery is really, really good. 

R.L.: And she's, and it's not just her voice, it's like she's delivering everything, like her eyes and everything, as if she is so confident in what she's saying. She's saying very crass things, but in like, this very snooty way. And it's just so funny. She should have been nominated Oscars. Come on. That was, this was the year, the same year as “Mary Poppins,” Julie Andrews won. 

B.P.: Yeah, well…

R.L.: What?

B.P.: I feel like…

R.L.: No, it's better.

B.P.: Well, I feel like Julie Andrews… 

R.L.: Oh, she's great.

B.P.: Yeah. 

R.L.: I just think they both should have, why can't everyone have fun? 

B.P.: Yeah, why can’t everyone win?

R.L.: No, it's just funny that, like, two of the, like, huge 60s musical movies had big years at the Oscars. It's kind of surprising that this one won, honestly, because I feel like “Mary Poppins” was such a touchstone. 

B.P.: Yeah, I feel like “Mary Poppins” was, well, it's definitely more culturally relevant, but maybe that's just because it's Disney.

R.L.: There's a song where he's like, “I'm a misogynist. This is why I hate women.” And that song is very, because he's like, contradicting himself all the time. He's like, “I'm a simple man,” and then he's like, saying all these things that are awful about him. And then he has another song where he's literally just saying, “I like men more than women.” He's like, “Why can't a woman be like you?” It's like, “I think you're in love. I think you're in love with Colonel Picard, and I think you should let Eliza go, frankly.” 

B.P.: Yeah, it was funnier than I thought it would be. 

R.L.: Super funny, I think. Yeah, it definitely lags in some parts, just because the fact it's so long. But I think that the kind of idea with these older movie musicals was that it's like, it's the musical on stage and like, they have intermissions and everything, because they're, you know, they're just like, "This is the stage musical, and we're putting it on a movie.” Modern movie musicals aren't necessarily that because, for one thing, it's a lot easier to watch musicals because we have the internet, and even if there's not a pro shot, people pirate them.

B.P.: Yeah.

R.L.: So it's not like this is the only way you can watch it. So I feel like there's more, like people will change more things. And the sets are very musically in the older musicals and now movie musicals don't look like musicals. Like the sets look like movies. 

B.P.: Yeah. That is actually something I noticed in “My Fair Lady,” like, when he was walking down the street, which he just left, or whatever. I was like, “This is so obviously a set.” 

R.L.: Yeah, I love that, though. Like, in the first scene where they're on a busy street, the only thing you can hear is them talking, like there's no street bustle at all. It's great. I love it.

R.L.: People who say they don't like musicals, like, I kind of don't believe them. 

B.P.: They just haven’t seen the right musical. 

R.L.: You just haven't seen one that you like. People are like, “Oh, I can't believe. Why would they just burst out a song?” It's like, if you've seen one that is for you, it won't matter. Because, and also, why wouldn't you want them to burst out into song? If they're singing a good song, it's fun. Movies are already fake, so it's just like a natural heightening. It's an expression of emotion in a way that's not exactly like reality, but represents feelings, I think? That's how I would explain that. 

B.P.: That's beautiful. Just sit down and watch all of them, and then you'll figure out which one you like. 

R.L.: Yeah, yeah.

B.P.: Maybe not all of them, but like...

R.L.: Yeah, you don't have to watch all of them. 

B.P.: Maybe not all, but like, definitely, well, “Les [Misérable]” is really long, but I would also recommend that. 

R.L.: Well yeah, everyone should watch that. 

B.P.: Yeah, I’m like, “Everyone should watch it.”

R.L.: How can you— but, the movie? 

B.P.: Oh wow. 

R.L.: Do you like it?

B.P.: I like it.

R.L.: I don't know. I don't hate it. 

B.P.: You're indifferent.

R.L.: I like “Cats” more. I just got to ask you one thing, are you a train guy or a plane guy? 

B.P.: Oh, train?

R.L.: Okay cool. 

R.L.: Well, the music's playing and they're yanking me off the stage with a cane. I never say this, but the best guest award goes to you, Brooke Pegues. Thank you so much for being on the show.

B.P.: Thank you for having me, Ryan.

R.L.: Of course, do you have anything you want to plug for the audience? 

B.P.: Spread more love. 

R.L.: Spread more love. That's lovely. 

B.P.: That’s all I got to say. 

R.L.: That’s amazing. Thank you. 

B.P.: Yeah!

R.L.: The Best Picture Show is a podcast hosted by Ryan Luetzow and produced by ROAR Studios. Opinions and ideas expressed in this podcast are those of individual student content creators and are not those of Loyola Marymount University, its board of trustees or its student body. You can subscribe to us on Spotify and Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to follow us at watch listen roar. This episode was produced by Ryan Luetzow. Special thanks to Emma Russell for technical guidance and Associate Producer Emma Singletary. Thank you to Brooke Pegues for joining us, and thank you so much for listening. Play us out.