Ryan Luetzow (R.L.): The Oscars are 97 years old. From “Wings” to an “Anora,” movies have changed a lot in that time. That's why I'm looking back at one Best Picture winner from each decade to try and understand the movies that were at one time called the best. This is The Best Picture Show. Welcome to the Best Picture Show, the show about the very best women and their men. My name is Ryan Luetzow, and today we're talking about “All About Eve,” a movie which in many ways is about influence, which is why today I have with me an influencer, Heaven Marley. Hi, Heaven.

Heaven Marley (H.M.): Hi. 

R.L.: “All About Eve.” Had you seen the movie before? 

H.M.: No, no, not at all. 

R.L.: Had you heard of it? 

H.M.: No.

R.L.: Never? So it won Best Picture at the Oscars in 1951.

H.M.: Oh okay, I was about to say when. 

R.L.: Yes, not recently, it's black and white. Not every movie was black and white by this time, because it was more just like a budget thing. But the Oscars were, there were a lot of categories that were split. It used to be sound and not sound, and then it kind of became black and white, not black and white, and then just everything was color.

H.M.: That was my first black and white movie.

R.L.: Ever?

H.M.: Yeah ever. 

R.L.: You haven't even seen like “Schindler's List” or anything?

H.M.: No, I don’t know what that is. 

R.L.: You don't know what “Schindler's List” is?

H.M.: No. 

R.L.: Oh, that's like a more modern movie. Wow. Okay, what did you think? Is this, like, the oldest movie you've ever seen? 

H.M.: It was. 

R.L.: Wow. 

H.M.: It was really good. I saw a lot of how it could relate to now, and the topic we're going to, like, get into. It was kind of predictable, but I liked it like it was good. 

R.L.: I feel like it's a pretty modern, old movie, you know? 

H.M.: Exactly. 

R.L.: Like, the dialogue is very sharp and witty, and, I mean, it's, I guess, kind of slow-ish, but each scene kind of moves fast, and there's a lot of complicated, like, characters, and a lot of, I feel like TV, modern TV kind of takes influence from this type of thing where it's, like, this complex, web of characters who all kind of have different motivations. Like, kind of reminded me, I guess, of, like, “Succession,” I don't know, not really, but like in tone. 

H.M.: I haven’t watched that, but I’ve heard good things about it. 

R.L.: I feel like the characters in this are a little less evil. 

H.M.: Maybe like “White Lotus?” 

R.L.: Maybe, yeah. 

H.M.: That’s what I'm watching right now.

R.L.: Okay, yeah, that type of thing where it's like, all these characters who have different, like, dynamics with each other, and they're all kind of pursuing their own little goals. Yeah, I’ve seen this movie once before, this my second time, and I didn't remember it being so dark. I remembered it being like, more of a funny romp, but it is funny, but in a really sharp and sad and upsetting kind of way. 

H.M.: Exactly. I wasn't letting out as many giggles as I was just like, “Okay, what's happening, what's next, what's next?” It was good, though.

R.L.: So the movie's about Margo Channing, who is a stage actor. She's like, anxious about her age. And then it's about this younger actress kind of stepping into her role, in a few ways. The reason we had you on, specifically for this episode was because kind of wanted to relate it to kind of a modern experience. Obviously, influencers weren't around in 1950 in the way they are now, but the movie is kind of about, like, status and fame. Are there parts of this movie that felt relatable or resonate? 

H.M.: No, for sure. I mean, in anything, we always have this person like we look up to. And for Eve, that was Margo. I would say I was kind of mad at Eve for like, a lot of the movie. I was like, “Girl, what are you doing?” 

R.L.: She's pretty evil. 

H.M.: Yeah, yeah. I was like, “Okay, this is not how you're supposed to go about things.” And I 100% was like, team Margo the whole movie, at least for like, what she was going through, but in terms of just like, what I've experienced, I was like, I didn't really have, like, a mentor, like you did, or someone. I had someone I looked up to, but it was never like I got a face to face experience. Until very, very recently, I actually met, like, my childhood, I guess idol. But until then, like, she had this source, and she kind of took advantage of it. I haven't had that. So I feel like because Eve had that she didn't create this own persona of herself. Because I haven't had anyone to do it, I've just been doing it for fun. I feel like I've created, like, my own sort of online network and own creative space that's unique to me, and Eve did not do.

“But until then, like, she had this source, and she kind of took advantage of it. I haven't had that. So I feel like because Eve had that she didn't create this own persona of herself. Because I haven't had anyone to do it, I've just been doing it for fun. I feel like I've created, like, my own sort of online network and own creative space that's unique to me, and Eve did not do.'“

R.L.: No. The thing about Eve is she's like, not really a person like she doesn't have her own. I mean, maybe she's like such a good actress, because she literally does not have anything else in her life besides ambition and wanting to rise up. And it's not really until she starts not getting what she wants that you see, like, anything of her personality besides, like, exactly what she thinks she needs to do to get ahead. I think a lot of movies would have Margo as the villain. I feel like it's more common to kind of have the older, bitter woman as the villain. But this movie doesn't really do that. 

H.M.: I 100% agree, because I feel like I was sort of trying to predict how the ending would go. And I thought the ending. I don't know what the last girl's name, who was sitting in the room, I was expecting it to be Margo, and for Margo to, like, kill Eve or something. 

R.L.: It’s not that type of movie. 

H.M.: I know, like, she just sort of sat there at the ceremony watching Eve, like, win, and just like, swallowed it. And that takes a lot. 

R.L.: Yeah, Margo kind of becomes more confident in herself, I think because she kind of, I mean, it's not the most progressive thing ever it's like, literally, just because her man, she's like, “Okay, he's not cheating on me. It's fine.” Her conflict is gone. But if you think about it more like, accepting love sense, you know, it could also be self love. It's kind of a saying, like, what is the career really matter? Like, besides from s taking care of the necessities thing. 

H.M.: She kind of realized her time was up, and she's like, “Okay, well, I'll let someone else take the spotlight,” which I thought was selfless of her, because she was like, “Okay.”

R.L.: Yeah, because the way I remembered it was like, yeah, it's about an older woman who you're like, on board with in the beginning, but then she, like, becomes crazy or something. And it's like, but that's not what happened. No, she becomes normal, and I was on board the whole time, even when she was like, quote unquote paranoid or whatever it's like, because most of the stuff…

R.L.: Was valid. 

H.M.: Yeah, people were conspiring against her, like she was getting a little sloppy, like, showing up to the rehearsal late, but people were also conspiring against her. And I think that's what's great about the movie, is that there's, like, so many layers to everything. It's like, you can kind of see things from most characters' points of view. 

R.L.: Exactly.

H.M.: Like her husband, yeah, like she is being jealous, but also you shouldn't be, like, yelling at her for even challenging you. 

R.L.: One thing that's kind of cool is that Margo is 40 and Bill's 32 you know, like, you don't see that a lot with, like, an older woman, and she kind of has those anxieties about it, because he's…

H.M.: Closer to Eve’s, I guess. Well there’d still be an age gap. 

R.L.: But also, just like, the fact that he's younger, you know, and from her perspective, looks a lot better than she does, and then it's nice that, you know, he still loves her. 

H.M.: I wasn't expecting the plot to go like that either. It's always like, “Oh, go for the younger girl.” But he's like, “No, I love you.”

R.L.: He's a good guy. This movie in a lot of ways, like, about, like, age and aging, I think, and and in an idolatry based profession, and influencers haven't really been around that long, so there haven't really been, you know, people who started as, like, really young influencers, and then age. There's not really like, a path for that. It's like, what do you think will be the path for that? 

H.M.: I don't know. I think it's so funny when people's journey starts at any age. Like, now there's like, influencers. Like, I follow this guy. He's like, 80 years old, and he just puts on outfits all the time, and he's just like, old man putting on outfits living life. But then there's like, really young kids, like, especially the family influencers, and then they have kids, and then those kids automatically, like, are in the spotlight now it's like, this new thing of celebrities and, like, nepotism, in a way, where if you're born into in front of a camera, like, you'll have that following too. So I think it's gonna change for everyone, but that's what I love about it, because it just determines, like, what the audience wants to see and who's gonna pick up on it. And your journey can start, like, at any time. 

R.L.: So do you think things have gotten better in terms of, like, accepting age? I think it's mostly with women, right? Like she says, like, Bill's 32 he looked 32 when he was 22 he's gonna look 32 in 20 years. Like, you know, that kind of thing. Do you think it's better? Or do you think there's still that kind of bias? 

H.M.: It's definitely, there's still age there. I feel like the sweet spot is in terms of just influencing when you, like, could have your quote unquote prime is like anywhere from 16 to like 40. I feel like that's like a big range, because whenever I meet people in that space, I meet people from every age that are moms or pregnant. For me, I'm normally the youngest person in most of the rooms that I go to, and I'm considered a baby in this space. But then you hit like the 20 year olds, 20-30 year olds that are, you know, a little bit more developed. But in terms of like brands wanting to reach out to people to do like brand partnerships, I feel like, in that sense, they want a younger sort of influencer. Because when they see a younger person, all the people that are going to be buying and consuming are going to be younger. So they want people that are going to be relatable, in that sense, like no one that's going to seem older, like their mom, like a friend. So they want a younger audience in terms of, like, the branding aspect. 

R.L.: So how do you think people who used to be getting those type of jobs and now aren't because they're older, what are they supposed to do? Just move to a new profession or what? 

H.M.: I don't know, I feel like it's gonna pivot. For right now. I feel like, when you're in the sweet spot, you get all the sort of brand deals. It's like, you can get beauty, school, whatever, but once you hit that, like, older range, it's gonna shift. It's going to be like mom, and now you're doing like, brand deals with like Pampers, cooking supplies, it's just going to look a little bit different. But I feel like I've thought about this too, because at one point in my college career it was like, “oh, do I want to do this forever?” Or what do I want to do with my life? Because I don't think influencing is like a long term career, unless you really make it, you should already have, like, a plan of what's going to be next, because I can only imagine recording your whole life for 40 plus years is going to be exhausting. 

R.L.: Yeah. I feel like the movie has a pretty I don't know if it's cynical, but, like, it's not particularly interested in, like, art. They're basically saying all these people are liars and frauds and, like, it doesn't actually care about the plays or whatever. 

H.M.: The actual quality of the theater. 

R.L.: And the movie, I think, is kind of because, you know, like, Eve does that whole monologue about your integrity and stuff, and he's, like, some people, their integrity is Donald Duck, their integrity is whatever. Like, it doesn't matter. The movie is basically saying, like, you have to prioritize, like, being a human. The people who rise to the top and are successful a lot of the times are not human, you know, these, like Eve and Addison DeWitt, the critic, like, he's a monster, and Margo is not, she's not a monster. She's like a human and and, you know, she was successful, and she'll probably be fine. You know, taking older roles, but you know, to be in the spotlight forever is like, not like something that, like a human would do, because they want other things in their life too. 

H.M.: I feel like it's a pride thing, a little bit like, if you're just constantly wanting the attention and spotlight at what, at what point do you want to give that up? Because I remember what Margo said at the end was, “I'm married now.” Like, this is what the next chapter is for me. And sometimes you're just going to have to let chapters close and let other chapters open. And some people are not, like, willing to let certain chapters close and they want to keep it open. And it's sometimes just, like, not what needs to happen.

R.L.: But I think it also does a good job of, like, not, like, villainizing Margo, you know, like, it's like, totally understandable, like, what she wants, and Eve is crazy. And psycho. I think Anne Baxter does a really good job of playing Eve in, like, a way where she's not doing anything that's creepy, but, like, she's still so scary. 

H.M.: Yeah, it's just, like, it's unsettling. She doesn't even realize it. 

R.L.: No, she's just like, being like, totally like, kind and nice. And that's what's creepy about it, you know, because Bette Davis is playing Margo with so many flaws and, you know, quirks and she's just not like Eve, just like standing there in the corner. And then I think it's super satisfying in the end, but also sad when, like, now Eve kind of is a person, and she's like, unhappy, which I guess is what the quality of what makes a real person is that they feel unhappiness sometimes. And then this new person, Phoebe comes in, and she's literally introduced in the mirror.

H.M.: I know, I know.

R.L.: And she's like, all perfect and stuff. And you're like, “oh, the cycle continues.” 

H.M.: Yeah, that's what I was saying. Like, I was waiting for Eve to slip something into Margo's coffee or to do something. And it was just like, no, she's genuinely just that crazy doing everything normal. 

R.L.: Yeah, this movie never heightens to the point of like, being like a thriller or anything like, it's everything that all the characters do is like, completely feasible and normal, I guess, but it still feels kind of bananas and psycho. 

H.M.: I think that's what made it relatable to life, because people aren't going to do crazy stuff all the time, like in the movies. Like that dynamic could, like 100% happen. Like, it's normal for people to come into your life and want to be like leeches and like, want to be you 100%.

R.L.: And I think it's interesting that this movie was so successful. I mean, it's about people doing plays, so it's not necessarily just making fun of Hollywood, but it's a pretty damning criticism of the idea of even, like, wanting to do something where you are kind of the product of, like performing or anything like that. And it starts with like a parody of the Oscars. Basically, it's like this guy, what this guy says doesn't matter at all, like he's talking over it, and yet all the people at the Oscars loved it. So, I mean, maybe it's just people being like, “Yeah, we can make fun of ourselves,” and then they're still not really changing anything. Before the little end tag with Phoebe it's like Eve at the ceremony, which the movie starts with, and then goes back back there, and she's giving this like classic, like Hollywood speech, and she's thanking all these people, but now we know all these people, and every single one of them hates her. It’s so funny, but you also kind of feel bad for her. 

“It's interesting that this movie was so successful. I mean, it's about people doing plays, so it's not necessarily just making fun of Hollywood, but it's a pretty damning criticism of the idea of even, like, wanting to do something where you are kind of the product of, like performing or anything like that.”

H.M.: She’s alone. 

R.L.: I think that's why her performance is so good. I think neither of them won Oscars, Bette Davis or Anne Baxter, because I think they kind of split the votes. They put them both in lead actress, which they definitely wouldn't do now, like in “Wicked” Cynthia Erivo’s lead, Ariana Grande’s supporting, even though they're both kind of.

H.M.: The lead. 

R.L.: But in the past, they would have just put them both in lead, and then they wouldn't win, which is why they don't do that.

H.M.: Got it. 

R.L.: It's the only movie in Oscar history to have four actress nominations, because two supporting, two lead, because Birdie was also nominated, Celeste Home. The only person who actually won an Oscar of the of the actors was the guy who played Addison, who is the critic, the evil the villain, basically. He’s such an incel, like, it's crazy because he thinks he's so smart and like, proper and everything. And like, he's such a sigma manipulator, but like he's such a pathetic baby. I love the scene where Eve tells Addison that she’s like, “Oh yeah, I'm gonna marry Lloyd, you know, I'm going to steal Karen's wife.” It's like, “Well I couldn't get Bill, so I'll get Lloyd, you know? And then I’ll be screenwriter.” And he's all disgusted. And you're like, “Oh, is this guy, like, going to be a moral person?” But he’s disgusted because he wants Eve for himself. She laughs at the idea of, like, being with him, and he freaks out and like, oh my god. 

H.M.: That's when I laughed in the movie. This is giving comedy.

R.L.: Yeah, because it's like, these two villains like being awful to each other, but also you kind of feel bad for Eve there definitely, because he, like, has a grip on her life, just because the fact that she lied about her backstory and he found out.

H.M.: I was like, “Oh, my god, people do anything, anything for the spotlight.” 

R.L.: I had remembered him being the narrator for the whole thing. But actually it switches to Karen's narration.

H.M.: Oh yeah. 

R.L.: And then she's kind of no one else ever gives narration, even though Karen's not like the point of view character. And then I think Addison, again at the end. In a lot of movies, I think she would just also be, like, a peripheral, kind of one-note. 

H.M.: A bystander. 

R.L.: Yeah, like, “Oh, she doesn't like Margo, so she, you know, causes the car to have no gas.” And then that would be her only role, but she's this multi dimensional character. I love the part where she has already betrayed Margo, but Margo doesn't know, and she, like, has the conversation with Margo, where Margo, like, says all the really nice things, like, “Oh, you know, I've been too mean.” I feel like that's really relatable, you know, like, when you, like, just talked shit about somebody, and then you have a really nice conversation with them.

H.M.: The immediate, like, heart to feet sink, is like, yeah.

R.L.: The women in this movie are much more well defined than the men, which I think is pretty cool, you know? 

H.M.: Yeah, it was definitely like, the main three people were, I feel like every like, every girl can kind of relate to them in some stage of their life. 

R.L.: It's not like the most positive female friendships, you know, but you know, they're all kind of backstabbing each other, but I think they're really well drawn characters who, you know, have a lot of dimensionality, and you can understand where they're all coming from. 

H.M.: You have the friend that is either you think that's like with you and that can be jealous of you and you don't even realize it until something happens and like something reveals itself. 

R.L.: The movie was written and directed by Joseph L Mankiewicz, pretty successful guy. He's the brother of Herman Mankiewicz, who wrote “Citizen Kane.” 

H.M.: Okay, I have actually heard of that one. 

R.L.: Okay. And then he had a movie, David Fincher, who made, like, do you know David Fincher? 

H.M.: No. 

R.L.: He made like, “ Fight Club.”

H.M.: Oh yeah. 

R.L.: And like, “Social Network.” He made a movie about Herman Mankiewicz called “Mank” a few years ago. I've been absolutely manked, you know? I got manked a few times. 

H.M.: What is the verb of manked? What does this mean? 

R.L.: You know, just getting manked, getting absolutely manked. 

H.M.: Got it, got it. 

R.L.: And then Joseph Mankiewicz is like a secondary character in that. I think it's hard in these types of, like, Hollywood satire movies, it's kind of an easy instinct to just make everyone, like, so awful and like evil. And you're like, “Yeah, well, Hollywood people suck.” But like this movie doesn't really do that. It's like everyone has bad tendencies, and there are some people who are pretty bad, but ultimately, they're people, and I think that's what the movie is kind of about, is like, be a person. Like, even if you're in this industry, like, remember to be a person. 

H.M.: And just because I watch so much bad TV and movies, I'm like, expect the absolute worst of people. And that's why I was just so shocked that it didn't go left. 

R.L.: “All About Eve,” good movie. 

H.M.: Really good movie. You guys should watch it if you haven't. 

R.L.: Yeah, even if you've never seen a black and white movie. 

H.M.: Yeah it’s a good first starter. I don't know. I know some people really appreciate black and white films, and I get it now. 

R.L.: It's like a normal movie, but with less color. 

H.M.: The color wasn't throwing me off at all. So I was like, “Oh, this is not too bad.” 

R.L.: Are you a plane guy or a train guy? 

H.M.: Plane. 

R.L.: Okay. 

H.M.: Wait, what is this? What's the context of this question?

R.L.: No context.

H.M.: What!

R.L.: Well, the music's playing and they're yanking me off the stage with a cane. I never say this, but the best guest award goes to you, Heaven Marley, thank you so much for being on the show. 

H.M.: Thank you. I appreciate it. 

R.L.: Do you have anything you want to plug for the audience? 

H.M.: Follow me on Instagram at Heaven Marley. I also have a podcast at She is the Vision. 

R.L.: And also “How to be Seen.” 

H.M.: Oh, “How to be Seen.” Yes, so amazing. 

R.L.: Directed by Anni Spacek, It's asking the question, “When it comes to being your authentic self on social media, how authentic can you truly be?” So if that question intrigues you, and even if it doesn't, you should watch it. 

H.M.: Yeah, it was really good. 

R.L.: But it should intrigue you, because this is the modern times and you should be aware of what's going on in society.

R.L.: The Best Picture Show is a podcast hosted by Ryan Leutzow and produced by ROAR Studios. Opinions and ideas expressed in this podcast are those of individual student content creators, and are not those of Loyola Marymount University, its board of trustees or its student body. You can subscribe to us on Spotify and Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to follow us at watch listen roar. This episode was produced by Ryan Luetzow. Special thanks to Emma Russell for technical guidance and Associate Producer Emma Singletary. Thank you to Heaven Marley for joining us, and thank you so much for listening. Play us out.