R.L.: Can you tell me a little bit about your background, what you're interested in? 

L.W.: Yeah. 

R.L.: You’re a horror guy? Is that your main thing?

L.W.: Yeah, I've been making horror films most of college. My senior thesis was a sort of action-slasher vibes, like “Halloween” and “Project Wolf Hunting” meets, like “Saturday Night.” So, like, definitely horror-comedy, but, so then “Rebecca” isn't really horror, right? I mean, it's maybe like gothic horror, mystery for sure, thriller for sure, romance kind of, maybe?

R.L.: It’s got a lot going on. I'd say the first half is definitely more spooky. 

L.W.: It's the hour mark that you actually get the first sort of intrigue about. I'm assuming we're spoiling the movie? 

R.L.: Yeah, we're spoiling the movie. I mean, it's like, halfway is the twist twist and also, just watch it. I mean, the spoiler doesn't mean you shouldn't watch it, it’s a good movie.

L.W.: Right. But the setup is very horror. I mean, it's like whirlwind romance. Girl goes to a secluded mansion, a mysterious rich guy we know nothing about. It's very similar to “Fresh.” But what's really interesting is, despite the fact that it's not horror, the very first shot we see is this tracking shot through the woods. It reminded me so much of “Evil Dead.” 

R.L.: Oh yeah. 

L.W.: They do like the POV. I don't know if you've seen “Evil Dead.”

R.L.: Oh yeah, definitely. 

L.W.: They have like, these really fast…

R.L.: Yeah, he's like, it's like the POV of evil, this concept of evil. 

L.W.: Which, like, they do at the beginning. It's not like a fast thing. The camera is giving the POV of, I guess it's her dream? She's describing a dream. 

R.L.: It's really interesting to me that the fact that she… we don't know her name, like, that to me is just such an interesting choice, and does make it feel very dream-like, because you know, when you're in a dream, you're kind of whoever anyone else says you are. You kind of, like, change who you are. You're like, “I was me, but I was also this other person.” And I do love the first half of the movie is very like, subjective, like, I feel like it's like her POV. And if I had one, I don't know if it's a criticism, because maybe I just don't like, get it yet, but I just feel like the second half kind of loses her point of view.

L.W.: It really does.

R.L.: Especially in the ending, like she's she like, we're totally with Lawrence Olivier, and then she's just like, she's fine from the fire, but we're not, like, in her point of view anymore, because then that kind of makes it weird that, like, we don't know her name. 

L.W.: I agree. 

R.L.: Because to me, the point of that is, it's her point of view. 

L.W.: I did think of that because I was, I was trying to see, like, you know, obviously Hitchcock is very influential for horror, and a lot of the horror plays off of, like, paranoia, which I think is very common, of like, “Am I crazy? Or are these things actually weird? Are people actually being passive aggressive?” 

R.L.: Kind of all horror, you know, is kind of like a metaphor for some fear or something, right? To some extent, the most obvious one going on this movie is, like, that fear of marriage and especially marrying someone who's already been married, or, like, being in a relationship with someone who's more experienced than you, and you can never really know them as well as you want to.

“Kind of all horror, you know, is kind of like a metaphor for some fear or something, right? To some extent, the most obvious one going on this movie is, like, that fear of marriage and especially marrying someone who's already been married, or, like, being in a relationship with someone who's more experienced than you, and you can never really know them as well as you want to.”

L.W.: I almost feel like, “Ready or Not,” might have drawn inspiration from “Rebecca.” I mean, this is, like a sort of lower class woman marries this higher class guy, and like everyone in this guy's life are like, “Oh, you're not, you're not from our world.”

R.L.: And have you seen “Crimson Peak?” 

L.W.: No, I haven't. That's Guillermo, right? 

R.L.: Guillermo, yeah. It's like, “Rebecca,” but like, a little more supernatural. I feel like a lot of the criticism of “Crimson Peak,” it's a great movie, I think. People are like, “Oh, this isn't even, like a horror movie.” It's like, “Yeah, it's not.” It's just bad people, even though there is supernatural stuff going on, that's kind of the same twist in “Rebecca,” like, there's no actual ghost.

L.W.: One thing that I thought this movie did really interesting was like, you know, it's female starring. Ronald Coleman is, like, a famous silent film actor, and he was initially contracted to play Mr. de Winter. He'd actually left the project because he was like, “Oh, it's too female starring.” So even for the time, it was like, this is sort of interesting, new and controversial 

R.L.: Joan Fontaine is really great.

L.W.: No yeah, I was reading up… 

R.L.: I don't think I've seen her anything else.

L.W.: This was one of her first big things, and there was this whole, like, massive casting thing. It reminded me a lot of, like, what Spielberg talked about with “West Side Story” with Rachel, Zegler, just their auditioning, like mega stars and unknowns, and they had this whole long list of people and ended up going with her. And I don't know exactly what point they brought her on, but he announced her casting three days before production began. 

R.L.: Oh, my god.

L.W.: Yeah.

R.L.: It is kind of funny though, just because the whole movie, everyone's always like, “Oh, you're like, you’re scum,” you know? And she’s like the most beautiful person I've ever seen. She talks like “Oh dear.” I can’t even tell who’s British and who’s American. 

L.W.: In the remark they need to recast her with Lily James. 

R.L.: Okay, great. 

L.W.: It's like they could have easily been like Rebecca, but we never see her in flashbacks or nothing. 

R.L.: You hear about Rebecca all the time, but you never see her. We see this woman all the time, but you never hear her name. 

L.W.: There's this really funny moment in the film when they're talking to the doctor, who, in the book, was like an abortion clinic. Then they see that the name on his like, logs are Danvers. And they're like, “Oh, describe this woman.” And he's like, “Oh, she's really, she was really beautiful.” And they're like, “That’s Rebecca.” There's no way that’s Danvers.

R.L.: It's about this woman who is a paid companion to this, like, socialite, rich lady, and they're at Monte Carlo, and, oh, just right off the way, I just got to say there's, like, these incredible, like, classic movie lines where they're like, “What do you think of Monte Carlo?” or, “Do you think of it much at all?” And it's like “Most girls would give their eyes to see Monte.” “Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?” I was like, “This is the movies!” I love movies. 

L.W.: It's that meme of like when you're writing with a quill and it turns on fire. 

R.L.: Yeah. So she encounters Laurence Olivier, who is very sexy in the movie, I got to say, just looks incredible. And he's this older man who they end up getting married because she has to leave, and then she ends up moving into this big mansion, and he has this dead wife who it seems like he's not over. And then everyone's like, “Oh, you don't compare to her. You're so plain, everything…” that kind of thing. And then halfway through, it's revealed that…

L.W.: So yeah, so everyone thinks that she had died in a boating accident. So he gets confronted by Mrs. De Winters, Jones, the main character. He confesses to what actually happened, which is that his wife, everyone loved her, but she was, like, extremely unfaithful and cruel behind the scenes. And had basically been like, “Hey, you could either divorce me, and it'll look awful because we were only married for four days, or you can, like, put up with my shit.” Until there's this guy she's seeing…

R.L.: Favel. 

L.W.: Yeah, her cousin who she implies that she's pregnant with this kid. She's like, “I'm going to have this kid. There's nothing you can do about it. He's going to grow up and inherit all your stuff.” And this is a very heated moment, and he like, slaps her.

R.L.: She trips and then dies. And it's supposed to be that he shot her. 

L.W.: And that's the thing. So that was in the book, right? 

R.L.: Yeah. 

L.W.: And then this is obviously under the hays code. And so this guy, this is one of the American film censors for the hays code. His issue with it, with the plot, with him shooting her was that it seemed that the movie was like, pro murder your wife. 

R.L.: Yeah. because he gets away with it.

L.W.: Right. He was like, “Either you can have Mr. De Winters go to jail at the end and pay for his crimes, or you can make the death an accident.” And they made the death an accident. Now, when they remake “Rebecca,” they're no longer under hays code, obviously, so they do the shooting. 

R.L.: And then the other two things I think were under censorship, was the abortion doctor, and they wanted her to get rid of the cousin romance altogether, but they were allowed to keep that. And then Mrs. Danvers, it seemed, they said it seemed like she was too in love with Rebecca. 

L.W.: Yeah, homoerotic tension, especially with, like, the whole lingerie thing and her obsession with that.

R.L.: And they, apparently, they had to cut some of that stuff out, but it's still pretty, like, I think, pretty heavily implied in the movie.

L.W.: No, no, right. Judith Anderson, publicly denied playing the character as a lesbian. 

R.L.: Yeah. But I think it's still like, regardless of what she was. 

L.W.: I mean, they really do emphasize the scene of her going through the underwear and the lingerie. She's like, “Look at this.”

R.L.: And when she does, like the “You can see my hand through it,” that's like the most, like the music stings. 

L.W.: Which is interesting. Was this pre or post “Rope?”

R.L.: Pre. 

L.W.: This is pre “Rope.” And then “Rope” obviously had the homoerotic tension between the two killers. So, you know, Hitchcock is getting away with what he can get away with under the hays code.

R.L.: I want each movie that I talk about on the podcast to kind of represent a different aspect of like, The Best Picture winner. And I feel like this one kind of represents how a lot of like, the big like, auteurs will, like, have their Best Picture winner, not necessarily be like their most famous movie. And I think that's kind of the case. But what's different, though, is that this wasn't really like, “Okay, we'll throw Hitchcock one because he's been working.” I mean, he had been working for a decent bit, but he hadn't really made any of his, like, gigantic movies yet, you know? So even though it is kind of like, seen as, like, “Oh, that's the one Hitchcock won for,” it wasn't really like a consolation prize or anything. 

L.W.: Yeah.

R.L.: He had four Best Picture nominated movies. But “Foreign Correspondent” was the same year as “Rebecca,” which was, and those two were his first two/

L.W.: And they were both nominated.

R.L.: Yeah. And then "Suspicion" in ‘42 and “Spellbound” in ‘46. That's really interesting. None of those are like his main movies. “Rebecca” kind of is up there, but it's not like big five, you know? It’s like “Psycho,” “Rear Window,” “Vertigo,” “North by Northwest,” “Birds.”

L.W.: “Rebecca's” up there. You know, I feel like when talking about this remake, I think it's a really interesting sort of case study. Only 25 Best Picture nominees have been remade. Three of those are Hamlet like, which is like, not even remaking the original movie, but remaking like the Shakespeare story. The new one, I say new, is five years old, but it wasn't well reviewed. People didn’t like it, it didn't do well, it went on Netflix. But it is sort of interesting to look at what changes they made, why they made them, how they could have made them. Like, one of the big things I noticed you see a lot more like conventional husband-wife stuff with the de Winters couple. Like, you just see the scenes like, not even like crazy sex scenes, but just like they're in bed together, they kiss more, 

R.L.: In the new one?

L.W.: In the new one which is like hays code in 1941 like, they took a walk together. They're like walking a dog. 

R.L.: I think those limitations, I mean, not this isn't arguing in favor of the hays code, but just the favor of artistic limitations in general is, like, for this movie, I kind of like that there's not that like connection, because it just makes it feel very like isolating and scary in the first half. And then the only times they actually seem like they’re in love is when they're trying to get away with the murder, basically. I think it's so much more interesting if he killed her because I just love the fact that she's happy that he killed her, because it means that whenever he's sad, whenever Rebecca is brought up, it's not because he's still in love with her, it's because he's like, embarrassed by the fact that he got married and killed her. 

“I think those limitations, I mean, not this isn't arguing in favor of the hays code, but just the favor of artistic limitations in general is, like, for this movie, I kind of like that there's not that like connection, because it just makes it feel very like isolating and scary in the first half. And then the only times they actually seem like they’re in love is when they're trying to get away with the murder, basically.”

L.W.: It’s a crazy story, but she's just like, “Oh, thank god, he hated his wife.” That's, like, this movie's big subversion. It wants me to think that, like, the twist is that he killed her, which is, like, so obvious. And I'm watching this movie, I'm like, “It's almost like, it's too obvious. That can't be a twist.” I'm like, “Okay, it's 1940, maybe it’d be surprising then.” And then he has this line of, like, “I knew she was at the bottom of the ocean because I put her there.” And I'm like, “Oh shit, that was the twist.”

R.L.: Yeah. And then he's going to be the bad guy. 

L.W.: But that's not where it goes. I mean, so let's talk about the ending. We just end on the fire and the burning pillowcase, pillow cover. But they'd wanted the smoke of the house burning to, like, spell an R in the air. And Hitchcock was like, “No, that's goofy as hell.” Like, this thing that's not going to happen. So during production, he made sure to only shoot the shots that he wanted in the film. So they had no option of, like, going back and being like, “Let's just, let's just put a little R in the smoke in the air.” I guess it is Rebecca's memory sort of finally being laid to rest. But it's also like, the mansion, right? Which is like, the whole thing with Maxim was, like his legacy of the kid, and where is the mansion is going to go, where is the house going to go, and now it's like, that's all gone. Maxim, Mrs. de Winters. Now they just have, I guess their love and like, I don't know, his home insurance, like, whatever money he still has. 

R.L.: Yeah, I'm sure he's fine. 

L.W.: Yeah. 

R.L.: The movie just looks so amazing, like movies don't look like this anymore. 

L.W.: Yeah it won Best Cinematography. 

R.L.: Yeah, and it's really interesting, those are the only two awards it won like that doesn't really happen at all anymore. It didn't win Best Director, and “Philadelphia Story” kind of swept the season. So it's just kind of interesting that this is the one that actually won, and the category was just called Outstanding Production at the time. So maybe it's just because this was, like, the more impressive kind of quote unquote production. 

L.W.: Outstanding Production was the Best Picture at the time? 

R.L.: Yeah right. 

L.W.: The producer was Selznick? 

R.L.: Selznick. So Hitchcock doesn't actually have an Oscar. 

L.W.: So that was Selznick’s Oscar technically. 

R.L.: Yeah.

L.W.: Which is interesting. Which, you know, I guess is true for Best Picture too. Technically, the producer, producers, I guess, win the Oscar for Best Picture, even though, like, everyone acts like the directors win it? 

R.L.: Yeah. Well, just because usually the director and the Best Picture winner are the same.

L.W.: And usually the directors are also producers on the film, nowadays, which wasn't the case with this film, right? Hitchcock wasn’t a producer?

R.L.: For this one, no. I think that would have been pretty uncommon because I think the producer job was more like defined in, old Hollywood, because, you know, the studio system and everything. And I think movies in like modern-day, where the movie wins Best Picture and the director doesn't win, are not usually this type of movie. It's usually the type of movie, like “Green Book” or “Coda,” where they're like, this is an important movie.

L.W.: Yeah. 

R.L.: I guess “Spotlight” too, even though “Spotlight” is way better than those movies. 

L.W.: I’m not a “Spotlight” fan.

R.L.: No? 

L.W.: I guess I don't really like the sort of office investigative thrillers, like, I'm not a big “Zodiac” fan.

R.L.: You don’t like “Zodiac?”

L.W.: I like “Zodiac” more than I like “Spotlight.”

R.L.: Okay, because I think “Zodiac” is one of the great American movies.

L.W.: Right. What I like about “Zodiac” is that we get these awesome scenes outside of, like, the offices and stuff.

R.L.: But anyways, these kind of, like, auteur driven movies, usually, when they're the ones that are winning Best Picture, they're always the director will win too. I don't know the most recent time that's not happened, but I think it's a good movie. I think people should watch it. 

L.W.: “Rebecca?”

R.L.: “Rebecca.”

L.W.: Yeah. 

R.L.: And “Spotlight,” but we won’t get into that. 

L.W.: I mean people can watch “Spotlight.” I’m all for like, what’s the saying?

R.L.: Oh like, “Watch movie, form your own opinion?" 

L.W.: Yeah exactly. At the end of the day, just watch the movie, whatever. I mean, it's “Rebecca,” it's Hitchcock, it's fun. I mean we just spoiled it all so… 

R.L.: You should still watch it.

L.W.: It looks very pretty. The performances are good. The music is good. It does, it's like, it was just sort of a staple of older movies. It's like, the music is overbearing, I think, like it is constant. It is like, anytime anything intriguing happens, it's like, “Bam bam bam.” 

R.L.: I kind of love it though. 

L.W.: It’s nice, it’s fun, but that also goes to show, like, how movie making has changed.Where it's like, do movies trust the audience more now or less? 

R.L.: I think, I kind of think studio movies less, but, or, I mean, that's it's not studio but, like, these kind of giant blockbusters, I think. It’s not the music, to me, it’s like the over-explanation of things. I think jet movies, I don't know, I think it depends on the movie. This movie is also pretty over-explained. Hitchcock loves to over-explain things. You know, there's like the "Psycho" scene. 

L.W.: Maxims, like, “Here’s exactly what happened,” and it is exactly what happened. 

R.L.: It's just the fact that it's like Lawrence Olivier kind of makes it work. There's a lot going on. It doesn't all like, clearly tie together, but it kind of still feels like it does. And I think that just makes you more interested in it to some extent, or me, it makes me more interested. 

L.W.: Yeah, yeah. “Rebecca,” give it a watch. If nothing else. It's sort of like, I don't know, would you call it? Would you call it like gateway Hitchcock?

R.L.: I don't know. I don't, not really, because I feel like gateway Hitchcock's like “Psycho” and “Vertigo” and “North by Northwest.” And this one's, even though this, this was before those, and I wouldn't say it's the best one to get into it with, because it's very, it's not like, the most Hitchcocky, you know? 

L.W.: It’s like tier two Hitchcock. Yeah, once you've seen one. 

R.L.: I'm not that well versed, like I've seen, like, the famous ones. Oh, I also wrote that this movie reminds me of “Cinderella II: Dreams Come True.” Have you seen that one? 

L.W.: Is that the one where Prince Charming jumps out the window? 

R.L.: No, that's “Cinderella III: Twist in Time.” “Cinderella III: Twist in Time” is really good. “Cinderella II” is whatever. But in that movie, it's like, what happens after the fairy tale? Like, she's kind of got to adjust to the castle. And there's like the maid who's like, “You're not doing princess stuff right.” 

L.W.: Oh, really? 

R.L.: So I don't have anything important to say about that, but I just thought I would mention it. 

L.W.: The modern “Rebecca” adaptation. 

R.L.: Okay, I have one last question for you. 

L.W.: Go for it. 

R.L.: Are you a train guy or a plane guy? 

L.W.: Like, as modes of transportation? 

R.L.: However you feel, however you’d like to answer the question. You can only be one. You have to make a decisive decision. 

L.W.: Alright. I've ridden on so many planes in my life, and very few trains, but I do love a good train. 

R.L.: Yeah.

L.W.: I'm going to go with train. 

R.L.: And the train is like, it's traversing the land, you know? It's like, you're like, passing all this stuff. It's like, go, go, trains. Okay, thank you so much. 

R.L.: Well, the music's playing and they're yanking me off the stage with the cane. I never say this, but the best guest award goes to you. Logan Weisberg, thank you so much for being on the show. 

L.W.: Thank you for prefacing that with “I always say this.” 

R.L.: I never say it. This is the first time I've ever said it, I've never said it. Do you have anything you'd like to plug for the audience? 

L.W.: Yeah, yeah. So I just finished production on a horror-slasher. It's very violent, it's very bloody. It's very irreverent, funny. It's called “Lights Camera Carnage.” We earned the title. I made sure of it. Follow me on Instagram, you’ll see it. Logan dot Weisberg. I'll be posting about it. 

R.L.: The Best Picture Show is a podcast hosted by Ryan Luetzow and produced by ROAR Studios. Opinions and ideas expressed in this podcast are those of individual student content creators and are not those of Loyola Marymount University, its board of trustees or its student body. You can subscribe to us on Spotify and Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to follow us at watch listen roar. This episode was produced by Ryan Luetzow. Special. Thanks to Emma Russell for technical guidance and Associate Producer Emma Singletary. Thanks to Logan Weisberg for joining us, and thank you so much for listening. Play us out.